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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Saw an interesting piece on The History Channel last night about Butch and Sundance. Turns out the real story of their death is that they were engaged by three fellows armed with 8MM Mausers. That struck me as an interesting meeting of old and new technologies.

Regards,
Jon
 

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Did the guys only have their pistols? ONE guy with a bolt action could pin down a couple of guys with nothing but SA revolvers, given a bit of cover and a commanding, elevated position, for instance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
andy said:
Did the guys only have their pistols? ONE guy with a bolt action could pin down a couple of guys with nothing but SA revolvers, given a bit of cover and a commanding, elevated position, for instance.
I don't recall if the piece said, Andy. I was listening, but I did not hear them say whether they were armed only with their handguns or not. Three locally based soldiers were dispatched to investigate the report of a fellow who said that two armed gringos were staying at his house. When the three arrived, Butch came to the door and started firing. The dramatization showed a range of 10-15 yards and showed Butch firing a revolver. One soldier was hit in the neck and crawled away. The other two soldiers hit both Butch and Sundance with the 8MMs. The waited through the night, and in the morning they found Sundance with a shot to the forehead, among other wounds, and Butch with a shot to his temple, among other wounds.

Regards,
Jon
 

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That is VERY interesting, Big Jon. I researched this a little, and some historians have them being ambushed by Bolivian National Policeman armed with 7MM Spanish Carbines. Sundance was said to have been killed immediately, but Butch was supposed to have escaped back to the U.S., and lived until the late 40's! His sister is the source. Quien sabe'[ (who know's). I would love to know. (As an aside, his sister has published (supposed) pictures of Butch well into his sixties.)
 

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As long as it's you and several buddies, against a couple of guys with SA revolvers, and you have cover, the bolt action should suffice. :)
 

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However, since it's highly likely to be just you,against several guys with auto rifles, I suggest that you concentrate on your CAR-15, with and without the optic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Right with you, Terry.

On the matter of the ambush & 7MM carbines, the History Channel piece referred to the Bolivian inquest that followed the shooting. They showed the manuscripts and indicated that they were thorough and detailed. The inquest manuscript was the source of their information on how it went down, the firearms that were used, etc.

The History Channel piece also addressed the issue of Butch returning to the US. The lady who swore Butch returned was his sister, or cousin, or somethin' - I can't remember. All other family members discounted her story, but the point was made that perhaps they wanted things kept quiet to keep the law off of Butch, and also to keep their own criminal liability down (aiding and abetting, etc.). The supposed post-return photos of butch were actually of a businessman from either Oregon or Washington state (again, I'm old and can't remember). He used to show up in Wyoming around Butch and Sundance's old stomping ground. He frequently had one of Butch's old girlfriends with him, and he held himself out to be Butch. After seeing the show, it seems unlikely that he was, in fact, Butch. The show had a forensic artist, a lady who taught the subject at FBI, do a photo comparison of Butch and the businessman. The differences were pretty clear - the nose and ears were totally different, and the most telling thing was that the width of the businessman's face was nowhere near as wide as that bucket jaw of Butch's. Also, think about this - if he really were Butch, would he advertise it? Especially in light of how hard he had worked to disappear, for instance by going to South America. Seemed pretty clear to me that the businessman was a wannabe. No way to alter ears or noses back then, and no way at all to alter the width of the overall face.

Anyway, the only reason I even brought this up was that it struck me in a romantic way - an event that marked, or at least evidenced, the end of one era, the "old west", and beginning of another (the industrial age) - Butch and Sundance, two of the last old-west outlaws still in operation and armed with the weapons of their day, revolvers and perhaps lever guns, meeting and being overpowered by Bolivian soldiers with new, "high-tech" Mauser bolt rifles.

Perhaps it struck me this way because I was fondling the new $5,000 U.S. Model 1917 I just bought from GB during the show. ;)

Regards,
Jon
 

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Butch and the Bunch

Thanks a lot BigJon, Again, who knows? I would like to think "Butch" made it back to the States, and lived a full life. Hell, he was a robber and bad guy, and I would have been proud to chase him in my career, but he never hurt anybody that I can find. Just look at that face. It looks to impish to be bad.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Terry G said:
... but he never hurt anybody that I can find. Just look at that face. It looks to impish to be bad.
But remember the guard he shot in the neck during the final shootout!
 
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