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Discussion Starter #1
maybe, but not what the match is SUPPOSED to be testing. With a shirt or FASTENED coat being the ccw garment, you have to clear it with the weak hand, prior to drawing. Since you are usually wearing such a garment, why bother with the bs "little finger brush" method of clearing the gun, hmm? KISS says such a thing is stupid.
 

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You are confusing tactics with gaming and that's a mistake. Abiding by the rules of a shooting sport isn't cheating. Don't like the rules? Don't play.
 

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As a convicted felon on parole he couldn't play even if he wanted to.
 

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From unedjumicated me, it sounds like the difference between people that want to give themselves every advantage to win a game, and people that want to test themselves using what they happened to be wearing that day.

While I respect both groups, I truly admire those trying to approach reality rather than those seeking glory. Obviously neither is real but there are differing shades of grey.

If the guy "cheating" really wears the tactical vest, reinforced whatever, etc. then I'd say he's just adapted his lifestyle to suit his weaponcraft (now that's getting pretty serious about carry, eh?.) No harm, no foul in that.



cheers
 

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I never fasten a coat when carrying - which is always - and I do select them based on how well they clear. Denim jacket is best. When colder a barn coat/jacket clears very well. Really cold, the down coat clears very well. Photog vest is handy but does not clear as well as others. But all work with the BS little finger/blade of hand sweep.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
u must not get out much. Where I live, you'd be dead in an hour, or severely in the grip of hypothermia, if you didn't fasten your coat, many weeks of each year. Once you get the shakes of severe cold, having a gun would do you no good. Ditto wearing heavy gloves, of course.
 

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andy said:
u must not get out much. Where I live, you'd be dead in an hour, or severely in the grip of hypothermia, if you didn't fasten your coat, many weeks of each year. Once you get the shakes of severe cold, having a gun would do you no good. Ditto wearing heavy gloves, of course.
An insult, with no basis.

If you'd have looked, you'd know he is in Georgia. The winters there are much milder than the winters in Pagosa Springs.

Just like I am in AZ, and the winters where I am are milder still.

so the norms and rules of your AO don't apply to everyone and vice versa.

:devil:
 

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Thanks Aslan. But Andy and I go back to his arrival on the scene at ShootersTalk. He was just teasing me.

He can call me a "lazy lame" for not doing my own smithing or casting lightweight slugs and I know exactly where he's coming from. I'm way more thick skinned than all that. I've had this debate with Andy about fastened coats and the all round usefulness of pocket carry vs belt carry a few times.

I also try to remind him that I'd have a near revolt to deal with if I abandoned my jeans for custom-pocketed baggy khaki's but he doesn't believe me. :nyah:

But back to topic, if it got so cold (-20) as to NEED to close front, then it's the down coat's day and those big-ass pockets easily swallow my G19. It's been a few years since those temps hit here and then only for a day.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I can tell you don't work or play outdoors much. :) If you'd get a DECENT pocket gun, like the Rorbaugh or the Mustang Colt, you wouldn't need to change pants, and can always just use jacket pocket. U will need to close front of jacket at PLUS 20 degreesF, not minus 20 degrees, if outside any time at all. Also, GA is way too hot for wearing jacket outdoors, much of the year, so back to pants pocket carry.
 

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While I respect both groups, I truly admire those trying to approach reality rather than those seeking glory. Obviously neither is real but there are differing shades of grey.
Krept:

There are folks who shoot to play the game. Not everyone shoots in preparation for SHTF scenarios. We have hi-power rifle, bullseye, the Olympic shooting sports, trap and skeet, sporting clays, and so on. To prevail over their opponents the shooter needs a winning attitude, self esteem, trust in their abilities, constant training, and they never, ever say die. Few people will ever reach the upper levels of performance because they will not devote the resources required to get really, really good.

I think a person can shoot competitvely and also be adept in the self defense shooting community. Here's a scenario to ponder. Your wife and kids are in grave danger from a bad actor in the parking garage. Two guys walk by, both of them are packing. Neither of them would make a zit on a C class shooters behind when it comes to shooting fast and accurately on the dreaded square range, but they are willing to help. Would you welcome thier help?

By contrast, Phil Strader and Ron Avery are walking buy, both of them are also packing. Phil is a long time law enforcement officer working on the Hill, and he is also a world class IPSC shooter. Avery owns and operates the Practical Shooting Academy and makes his living training cops, feds, and soldiers. Avery is also a former LEO. He is also a world class IPSC shooter having won the Limited 10 Nationals. Would you want them to just keep walking because IPSC is going to get everyone killed?
 

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Ankeny, I understand everything that you say and I appreciate your time in addressing my comments.

I make the distinction between "fun fun" and "serious fun." Fun fun is something that I do that I get enjoyment from and don't necessarily expect a "payoff" for in the real world... things like watching a movie, playing Pictionary with friends, jamming in a drum circle, painting with acrylics, carving tikis out of wood. I truly do all of these things for the pure enjoyment of it.

Things that I do for "serious fun"... kicking and punching my heavybag. Hitting the same with rattan sticks, a rattan blade that I made. Grappling every once in a while with my brothers in law. Knifemaking. Shooting. Although there is a "serious" connotation, I really, really enjoy them and get a big smile on my face even though there is a practical application for them (offense/defense/weapons making).

I am interested in the IDPA because of it's "serious fun" application. I want to be as good as I can be and not simply the transitory "best" of all at the current game. That's why I admire those who use "real world" gear and garments, while I respect all who do it for serious fun and for fun fun.

With all of my other hobbies, I simply cannot get into more "fun fun" stuff, but I can justify serious fun stuff, especially because it's awesome and helping hone real world skills. Even if I had the money for a self defense shotgun, a trap and skeet shotgun, a bolt action rifle, a couple revolvers, etc. I wouldn't have the time to shoot them. For that reason, I choose to only own a few weapons and seek to master them.

Of course I agree with what you said... even someone that shoots in "gaming" most of the time will almost always have superior skills over someone who shoots rarely and not under pressure.

I think that andy mostly gives advice to the "little time, little money" crowd and that's why I appreciate it. For those who already have their gear, training and philosophy locked, I can easily see why they don't get much out of what he's saying and choose to focus on the character issues. I disagree with some of what he says... like the coat issue (I was outside in shorts and tee shirt last night at 10PM) and that folks are "cheating" when they use the tac vest reinforced with plastic or whatever (they most likely aren't being true to what they would normally wear, some exceptions, as noted). For the most part, however, I think he's spot on. It sounds like the SPIRIT of IDPA was to test your normal wear and gear, not anything else. Again, to those who have adapted their style and actually DO wear everything they game with, more power to em.

cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #12
VERY few " have things down", much at ALL, dude. Not even the top match hands amount to much with the real deal stuff, in most cases. I"ve met them, trained with them, talked with them extensively, stayed with them, etc, and I know how they "think" about such things.
 

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Remember he was top 10 in IPSC when there were only 8 guys. . .:dgrin:
 

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IPSC is not reality! Thats a fact, IPSC does allow you to hone your shooting skills, sight picture, trigger control, etc. It also allows you an excuse to spend more time and energy (plus money) on your hobby, as does any shooting discipline. There is nothing tactical about IPSC except in the fantasy world. IPSC shooters are NOT "gawd's gift to the shooting community, neither are Cowboy shooters, or Service Rifle shooters or IDPA shooters, etc. They are all games, nothing else.

Combat, as I am told is where the targets shoot back! Thats reality. Given the "sport", I am also told that there are no rules to staying alive. Games have rules, reality doesn't. Gun games do teach you proficiency in the chosen firearm that you use. Additional knowledge is good, knowledge can assist you coming out ahead in the world. As the world rapidly changes, we can no longer dictate the circumstances that we will encounter. If the balloon ever goes up, flexibility and versatility will keep you alive, not a game.
 

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Garand:

Man thanks for the great post. Nice to see someone gets it.

I don't know about Canada, but most USPSA clubs (United States arm of IPSC for guys who don't know) have given up on scenario based stages. That's right, we don't even have a fantasy world anymore. That's why IDPA got started. :)
 

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Thats why I quit IPSC in Canada, because I "got it". Like I said before, I've shot sanctioned IPSC matches in 2 provinces, and club matches in a third. I can't handle the attitude of the "elitists". Thank you for the compliment.
 

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Considering the anti-gun sentiment in this country, you would think the elitists and snobs in all shooting sports would get a clue. My gawd, the future of all shooting sports is in attracting and keeping members. SASS seems to be about the only group that is really successfull at promoting growth. I think IPSC is on the right track with Limited 10 and Production.

Just curious, by elitist are you talking about guys who download the mags in their fat race gun then go shoot one class below their highest classification against single stackers like a shark feeding on tuna? The Open division shooter who uses a $3000.00 optically equipped blaster to beat a guy with a stock Glock then strut their stuff like their shit don't stink? We don't tolerate that stuff. Around here, if you have a Master card in your wallet you better be helping everyone whenever possible, you damn well better tape targets and set steel, and you better be low key when the next highest competitor only manages 50 per cent of your score. The only thing worse than a poor loser who pouts is a winner who gloats and makes others feel inferior.

FWIW, the way I barged in here is way out of character for me in comparison to how I conduct myself in the shooting sports. In retrospect you were pretty easy on me. A good swift kick in the virtual nuts would have straightened me out a lot sooner.
 

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Ron, you know exactly where I'm coming from. An example, last year I shot the Canadian Cowboy Action National Championships. Just after 1pm on the 1st day of a 2 day match we were asked to step aside and cool our heels for 90 minutes while the #1 Cowboy shooter and his entourage shot through the course. It appears that he had an IPSC match to shoot the next day! He of course told the match director to have his prizes forwarded to him. And they were. I have met many others like him, no, they won't tape, they are there to shoot!

Cowboy Action (SASS) is now attracting many disgruntaled IPSC shooters and they are bringing many of their bad habits with them. Have you ever seen a $1500.00 souped up Cowboy pistol? Shooting is a fun, leisure activity. As you get older you loose the "fire in the belly" that drives the burning ambition to be "gawd's gift to shooters". I enjoy going out and being one of many shooters, just having a good time. You have good days where you smoke up the range and bad days where you have just 1 to many brain farts.
 

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Very interesting observations from Garand and Ankeny. In a lot of cases we, the shooting fraternity, are our own worst enemy's. I have seen novice shooter's basically laughed off the local ranges because of their firearms selections or because of their abilities. This is not good for us. Sure, old fatmouth over there with a tricked out Les Bauer is shooting better than Mr. New Guy with a four inch Taurus .38 Special. So let's all make fun of him. That does a lot for the shooting sports. As an instructor, I made it a hard and fast rule that NOBODY on my range was belittled. I never was the "hollering" type. If someone is having problems, talking and praising there progress does a lot more than shouting at them. I recall a "bowling pin" shoot where a bunch of us "pro's" were generally patting ourselves on the back about how well we had done. Then a nephew of one of our number showed up and RENTED a S&W .45 auto. He didn't own his own pistol. He cleaned our collective clocks. That's a memory I have not forgotten when I start getting too full of myself.
 
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