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it's 10 to 1 odds that you wont have to hit him at all, as long as u get the gun out and "on" the attacker soon enough, get to cover, etc. You won't have to EVEN FIRE 80% of the time, and half of the time, if you do have to fire, just the MISSES will run him off. Half of the time, ANY sort of solid hit to vitals makes them QUIT ( NOT the same thing as a physical incapacitation) and 1/4 of the time, ANY hit, even poor ones, to limbs, etc, suffices) So it's EXTREME speed of getting gun OUT, and extreme speed at hitting, at very close range that matters. Just because some ignorant lames think otherwise doesn't change the facts of the situation. Sure COPS in uniform SOMETIMES have different parameters, but not one man in 100 is a uniformed cop. Not even one handgun owner in 50 is a uniformed cop. So the odds are VERY hight that I am right about what MATTERS.
 

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of the dozen or so confrontations I've had, and as many

more that I ALMOST had, EVERY ONE was inside 10 ft. Virtually everyone you talk to about this says the same thing, if they are being honest with you. the Net forums are full of LIARS about this, and about nearly everything else.
 

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You're inventing an arguement and then patting yourself on the back for it.

Getting a weapon out fast and hitting, well, no ********* duh.

Speed and hitting have to go hand in hand. A .0001 second difference at the range is a meaningless figure because every encounter is different.

There's other factors too, like when someone such as yourself has a bad flinching problem, causing you to miss. The most important thing you can have in a fight is a cool head.

The point that you seem to always be missing is that those of us, who in 'normal times' ACTUALLY carry a weapon around, legally I might add, know what works and what does not for constant carry.
 

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I thought you were leaving? Since your not please detail these 12 confrontations. Why did people draw on you or want to attack you? Is it because of your personality? sentence deleted unnecessary and derog
 

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andy said:
it's 10 to 1 odds that you wont have to hit him at all, as long as u get the gun out and "on" the attacker soon enough, get to cover, etc. You won't have to EVEN FIRE 80% of the time, and half of the time, if you do have to fire, just the MISSES will run him off. Half of the time, ANY sort of solid hit to vitals makes them QUIT ( NOT the same thing as a physical incapacitation) and 1/4 of the time, ANY hit, even poor ones, to limbs, etc, suffices) So it's EXTREME speed of getting gun OUT, and extreme speed at hitting, at very close range that matters. Just because some ignorant lames think otherwise doesn't change the facts of the situation. Sure COPS in uniform SOMETIMES have different parameters, but not one man in 100 is a uniformed cop. Not even one handgun owner in 50 is a uniformed cop. So the odds are VERY hight that I am right about what MATTERS.
Except you are mixing a lot of stuff together.

The whole part about cops is totally irelevant and has nothing to do with your premise. (what cops do, might do, might not do, etc. has zero impact on what a civilian may or may not do.)

The whole part about the effects of shooting have nothing to do with the distance at which the shooting takes place. (or do you think that if the exact same hits are made from farther out, that the effects are different?)

So, what are we left with? pretty much nothing outside of the title of the post. Interesting.

Now lets say you are correct about the 100 to 1 thing. Ok, then you are totally screwed in the 1% scenario. What is the harm in being prepared for that scenario? Nothing. what is the harm in not being prepared for it? You could be dead.

Hmm, what is the prudent thing to do? How about proper training and preparation. Why start out crippling yourself? Why always opt for the lazy approach?

I'd rather train for an event that NEVER happens, than die because I was too cheap, too lazy, or too ignorant to make the effort.

:devil:
 

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Peactice your quick draw and your point shooting!
 

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What I did was tried to pick a shooting system that fully integrated close quarter retention techniques in with the drawstroke. The verticle plane up the body to a pec retention position with the offhand at the sternum, 2 hands mate at the sternum, and then the gun is thrust out in a horizontal plane, with the sights becoming visible somewhere during the horizontal extension, usually about halfway out. The L shaped drawstroke is designed to work with handguns of just about any barrel length, and so as to clear any obstructions that might be in the way of the "softball pitch" type draw, as well as to keep the muzzle from being seized and/or averted.

Its a 4 part drawstroke, and I know where that muzzle is pointed and if I have a shot during all 4 parts. The offhand is free to fend and I can still shoot, as I know where my muzzle is at retention due to the pec reference and high shoulder. The gun extends or retracts based on environmental conditions (distance to target or possible target).

Having worked this method through all ranges of a scenario, including grappling, I'm pretty confident that I have a solid, workable system. The only thing left to do is train the sh^t out of it.

Buying Airsoft guns and training guns that fit your gear is pretty critical to testing your stuff with partners. Another neat little trick is to get some crimson trace grips for your training gun and seeing exactly where your bullet will or will not impact while in retention/grappling positions. Testing your stuff with a partner or 3 is also highly desirable.

I do not claim to have originated this system at all...in fact, it is the brainchild of a guy who posts around the net as SouthNarc. There are also other "modern technique" instructors who teach similar systems, such as Jim Grover/Kelly McCann, who has a pretty righteous Combative Pistol tape series available from Paladin Press.
 

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It is great to read an instructive post that DOES NOT contain a lot of dubious percentages and questionable fractions. I wonder where all that math-based (non)info comes from?
SatCong
 

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This 10yd stuff all depends where you live; not everyone hangs around in the back alley of a bar and has to worry about drawing down on drunks and drug addicts. 7-10yds may be the AVERAGE range for personal defensive shooting but is not the only disatnce ever.

Your attacker may retreat find cover and then draw and fire on YOU.

OR, his buddies hidden further back might engage you also. Training ONLY for a 10yd gunfight is training to die.
 

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The whole part about the effects of shooting have nothing to do with the distance at which the shooting takes place. (or do you think that if the exact same hits are made from farther out, that the effects are different?)
I did not see where anyone else claimed this to be the case, I guess I missed it, but the premise is in fact true - closer in hits can cause a much greater injury to the person who is shot when in very close quarters to the shooter.

If you doubt this at all there is a simple way to give it a test. Now granted my test will use a target vastly different from human flesh; however, it is the properties of the gun firing a bullet up close that is the concern here. If you stand ten feet from a target and fire 6 shots from your weapon at a regular shilouette paper target you will see nice small round bullet holes. If you get to within an arm's reach of the target, holding the bottom of the gun hand on you hip, gun canted out to not catch on clothing, and then fire, you will probably again get small holes. Now do something else, draw the gun when you are an arm's distance from the target and place it anywhere in front of your body and fire 6 shots. Check the target, do you see only 6 holes or is there a pretty large ragged hole torn into the target (if not get a bit closer next time). This is the effect of the gasses blasting out of the muzzle. That muzzle blast can do considerable damage shock wise in addition to what a bullet alone can do. It can also light clothing or hair afire.

This may seem extreme to some, but there are gunfights that take place that close. The thing is if someone has a gun out on you and holds it that close to you, you are likely better attempting a gun take away than you would be to try and draw your own weapon if still holstered. As a matter of fact if you are ever that close to an opponent and have your gun offered out to him/her like that, chances are he/she will take it from you. The part of Andy's argument about drawing your weapon quickly at a range under 10 feet could be quite dangerous for you if you are in very close. So grabbing the bad guy's weapon could be better if you have the proper training. Even if you cannot take it away, if it is a semi auto it may go off once, but will jam if you grabbed it by the slide, this could give you enough time to step back, draw and fire several times before the bad guy composes himself or even realizes what has happened. I am talking arms reach type scenarios AND I AM TALKING SOMETHING THAT REQUIRES LOTS OF TRAINING..
 

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I NEVER READ, YOUR COMPLETE 'POST'![nor, the others]

now ,KNOWING THAT FACT! [10'] is the [x]-ring danger z [ heck, i could probably LEAP and stab/stick, @that range!]

it does take a wild 'MAN'




:wavey:
 

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Glenn (& others...some of this is just general rambling. :nyah: )

The paper target does indeed get rather tattered, but the cardboard underneath really doesnt. A bit blackened, maybe, but not shredded.

I've never tried a contact shot, though, just about 1-2 feet away. Part of the course of instruction for the shooting method I mentioned includes leaning your forehead against the target and taking a number of shots.

If your pec index is consistant, you'll get all your shots in less than a fist-sized group. Once you have a consistent retention index, you can start doign fun things like fending with elbows or averting the bad guy's muzzle. If you know the line of your shot and are clear of it, you can still dump rounds while doing so.

If the bad guy's too close, as you mentioned, it's a far better bet to either access a faster weapon such as a short fixed blade knife in an appendix-area sheath and/or just bust the guy up while averting his muzzle, possibly stripping his weapon if you can.
 

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Ever get a powder burn? Now imagine those hot gases entering with the bullet. Ouch
 

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the 'neck' carry of the .22 MINI-REVOLVER

i HAVE 'practiced' that 'firing manuver' threw the clothes, and yes!

the 'pain ' from hot gasses/splatter, is quite laughable, concerning 'the' outcome of not FIREING,'[at all]!!!!!!!



thanks, :wavey:




[does, anybody? remember the cartoon of "COMMANDER Mc BRAGG" [quite,auummgh!!!]
 
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