Curio & Relic Convert

2008 Views 19 Replies 8 Participants Last post by Terry G, Sep 13, 2004

Terry G

Discussion Starter · Jul 19, 2004

My wife and I helped some friends of our's out with managing a garage sale this past weekend, and my friend stopped by to drop off a gift of appreciation. I was cleaning an old Yugoslavian Mauser at the time, and of course he had to ride me about "that old junk." Like I usually do, I rode him right back with "real men can get the job done with any rifle." It's BS on both our parts, as we regularily shoot our Colt AR-15's together, but it's still fun. Of course I dragged the old girl out and let him fire some rounds of hot Turkish ammunition. After commenting how "She yerks a little, but pretty accurate", I told him I had three others just like it. Then it started. "how much do they go for?" "How much is ammo?" "I wouldn't mind playing around with one." Then the tug of war started with "well, sell me one of yours." (Me)"Can't, I bought them on a C&R license, not for resale." I finally agreed to sell him one I had bought off license at a Fleet Farm Store. It never fails that every time I have trotted out some C&R relic, somebody wan't to buy it. Be it Mauser, Turkish, SKS, or SMLE. First they laugh, Then they WANT.

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1 - 20 of 20 Posts

Magnum88C

· #2 · Jul 19, 2004

Good job adding to the ranks.

andy

· #3 · Jul 19, 2004

sure they want, at HALF price you paid for it. So what?

Garand

· #4 · Jul 20, 2004

Is it me, or is someone jealous that we can buy or sell guns as we want to??

Magnum88C

· #5 · Jul 20, 2004

Probably also jealous because milsurps are medium bores, when he can't shoot a .22 without a compensator.

Terry G

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jul 20, 2004

andy said:
sure they want, at HALF price you paid for it. So what?

Thanks for your response. You have not answered a post of mine politely since I joined this Forum. Maybe you can't. I sold it for exactly what it cost me, minus the work to get it clean. I threw in a 70 round bandolier of ammunition, too, because he is a friend.

Terry G

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jul 20, 2004

Garand said:
Is it me, or is someone jealous that we can buy or sell guns as we want to??

I think that is exactly what it is, Garand. To buy or sell a 50 year old gun is a minimum of effort unless you are forbidden to. Then it becomes priceless.

BigJon

· #8 · Jul 20, 2004

Wow, Terry, those are beautiful. Looks like you did some work on them. Myself, well, I have picked up a Model 1917 Winchester recently, and I have a very nice 1903A3. Both are good shooters, but I am large, and the short stocks on the things are not pleasant for extended shooting. On a tip, I ordered rubber grenade-launcher boots for them from Sarco. That should give me a little extra padding and also increase the length of pull on these stocks, which as you know are very short so they'll fit a wide range of soldier bodies. Am also working my way (money going to other projects first) to buying several Spanish Guardia .308 Mausers for gunsmithing practice and for truck guns. Did you do your own work on the rifles in your photo?

Regards,
Jon

andy

· #9 · Jul 20, 2004

if u "think" I can't, you are very stupid indeed. If you "think" I'd ever BOTHER, you are even MORE stupid. I never bothered with such crap even as a teenager, much less now.

Terry G

Discussion Starter · #10 · Jul 20, 2004 (Edited)

BigJon said:
Wow, Terry, those are beautiful. Looks like you did some work on them. Myself, well, I have picked up a Model 1917 Winchester recently, and I have a very nice 1903A3. Both are good shooters, but I am large, and the short stocks on the things are not pleasant for extended shooting. On a tip, I ordered rubber grenade-launcher boots for them from Sarco. That should give me a little extra padding and also increase the length of pull on these stocks, which as you know are very short so they'll fit a wide range of soldier bodies. Am also working my way (money going to other projects first) to buying several Spanish Guardia .308 Mausers for gunsmithing practice and for truck guns. Did you do your own work on the rifles in your photo?

Regards,
Jon

Yes. Two are missing because I bought them a short while later. I'm no expert at this, just Mineral Spirits, Guns scrubber and a lot of work and rags. The SKS's were MUCH tougher, due to the gas system and grenade cut off, all filled with cosmoline. The blond wood one jammed repeatedly, until it finall spat a glob of cosmoline in my face. It's worked fine ever since. The military guns are designed to fit everyone, so they fit no one!

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gripper

· #11 · Jul 20, 2004

Hiya Terry! I gotta agree;the milsurp/curios are FUB!...not to mention utilitarian.Rate of fire won't be hig like a semi,but whichever you practice with ;stripper clipped ammo on a bandolier/carrier makes for a cood "grabbitand go' or Ppickup truck" option.Back when I was legal in Massghanistan(may change soon _hopefully)the old beater-bolt guns and SKS series was and still remains an option to hang ont0.
Besides the cheap surplus,there's a few more options ouyt there in ammoland;both in component and loaded(quality )ammo.
One of my "thinggs to do"on the list is definitely to re-stock my old collection.Have to see what October(effective date of change to Commonwealth gun law) brings...

Magnum88C

· #12 · Jul 21, 2004

gripper said:
Rate of fire won't be hig like a semi,but whichever you practice with ;stripper clipped ammo on a bandolier/carrier makes for a cood "grabbitand go' or Ppickup truck" option.

The Mosin Nagant M38 is my truck rifle. Hard to beat a $50 rifle that fires a powerful round and isn't as inaccurate as some would have you believe. Plus, if it gets taken by an in-the-dark LEO (carry is legal here) and gets beat up in the police inventory before being returned, well, it's a $50 rifle!

BigJon

· #13 · Jul 21, 2004

Terry G said:
The military guns are designed to fit everyone, so they fit no one!

lol! Yep! Never heard it put that way, but it's damn accurate (wish I'd thought of it). My Garand and M1A weren't a big deal. There are commercially available rubber buttpads that screw right on where the metal buttplate is removed. The 03A3 and 1917 were a bit tougher. I bounced around the internet and found a thread where some guys had suggested the rubber grenade-launcher boots for 'em. I located some reproductions at Sarco and ordered two yesterday ($35 each - youch!). Worth it, though, it if keep me from having to wear one of those Past patches during my plinking walks through the woods; I am mighty tired of my pals gigging me, a "big ol' 6'5", 270 pound wuss", for wearing it. I point out the fact that they have nice, juicy Pachmeyer pads on their rifles, but to no avail.

But "designed to fit everyone, so they fit no one"? That is the truth - If you are big, the short stock will smack you, and if you don't put your thumb back over the stock, whack yourself in the nose with your shooting thumb. On the other hand, if you're small enough for the stock to fit, you're probably too weak to even hold the heavy-assed thing up!

Regards,
Jon

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Terry G

Discussion Starter · #14 · Jul 21, 2004

M-16 Stock length

This is kind of funny, BigJon, and don't know if it's true or not. But supposedly when Colt bought the rights to manufacture the M-16 for the government, a typographical error occured where the average height of the U.S. serviceman was given as 5'8" when in fact it was 5'7" (in the late '50's). This led the rifle to be designed a tad long for the average Soldier, Marine, and Air Forceman. Again, who know's?

BigJon

· #15 · Jul 22, 2004

Yea, but that shouldn't be a problem in the long run. Remember, as we are getting larger as we evolve, so the stock length ought to be just right ...

... right about the time our brains similarly evolve to the point that we drop the AR in favor of the M-14.

Stillwater

· #16 · Jul 23, 2004

MELVIN'S life of disservice to our country ...

Terry G said:
Thanks for your response. You have not answered a post of mine politely since I joined this Forum. Maybe you can't. I sold it for exactly what it cost me, minus the work to get it clean. I threw in a 70 round bandolier of ammunition, too, because he is a friend.

TG:
You and MELVIN are on different sides of the fence.

You have chosen a life of service to our country. and MELVIN has chosen a life of disservice. MELVIN will never act anything other than jealous and hateful.

Bill

Glenn Bartley

· #17 · Sep 11, 2004

You seem to think that because you purchased a firearm on a C&R you cannot sell it. You can sell them so long as you are doing so as a collector and not a reseller of firearms or in other words not as a dealer. Please look at the ATF website, the info is there, and I am pretty certain I got it right..

Glenn Bartley

· #18 · Sep 11, 2004

Terry,

A quick look at this page http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/intro.htm brought up these two paragraphs about a C&R holder and the disposition of firearms bought on such a license. The first part is from the second paragraph on that liink.

The principal advantage of a Collector's License, therefore, is that a collector can acquire curios or relics in interstate commerce. Although a licensed collector may acquire and dispose of curios or relics at any location, dispositions to nonlicensees must generally be made to residents of the same State in which the collector is licensed. Further, A LICENSED COLLECTOR IS NOT AUTHORIZED TO ENGAGE IN BUSINESS AS A DEALER IN ANY FIREARMS, INCLUDING CURIOS OR RELICS. A FEDERAL FIREARMS DEALER'S LICENSE IS REQUIRED FOR THIS ACTIVITY. The term "engaged in business" as applied to a dealer in firearms refers, in part, to a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit. Therefore, any person intending to "engage in the business" of selling firearms, including firearms defined by ATF as Curios or Relics, must first obtain a dealers license.

So while they are not out right saying you can sell them, they are clarifying that you cannot use a C&R license if you plan to "engage in business as a dealer" regarding firearms that have been classified as curios and relics. It does not say you cannot sell them. Reading on on that same link you come to this next part:

178.125 Record of receipt and disposition (f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall, except as provided in [§ 27 C.F.R 178.125] (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm curio or relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or relic shall be recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction.

Now note that last sentence where they talk about: "The sale or other disposition..." They don't mean the sale to you by the dealer from whom you bought it because they already covered that part by saying you had to keep a record of the receipt of the curio or relic firearm. Now they are talking about the sale or other disposition after you already own it.

I have also spoken to ATF on the phone, and they confirmed to me that yes you can sell any and all of the firearms that you bought with a C&R - but you do have to maintain records. So as I understand it, when you do sell them it needs to be as a collector not as a dealer engaged in the business of firearms sales. In other words, again if I got it right, if you wanted to sell a Yugo SKS that was in your collection you could do that so long as you legitimately bought it for your collection and not expressly with the intent of selling it as part of a business.

Check this yourself, ATF does answer the phone, or with abit more searching on their web site you may find where it says pretty much what I am saying.

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Glenn Bartley

· #19 · Sep 11, 2004

Can a licensed collector sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a nonlicensed resident of another state?

Yes. A licensed collector is specifically authorized to sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a nonlicensed resident of another State so long as 1.) The purchaser meets with the licensee in person at the licensee's premises to accomplish the transfer, sale, and delivery of the rifle or shotgun; and 2.) The sale, delivery, and receipt of the rifle or shotgun fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such states.

Aha, I knew they said it somewhere. This papragraph applies to someone wanting to sell to someone in another state, but note that word SELL as applicable to the holder of a C&R license. It is from the ATF FAQ about C&R licenses. Of course you could also seel to someone in another state by going through an FFL.

By the way, note that if you dispose of any guns that a curios or relics that you purchased BEFORE you had your C&R License you still have to follow all the rules as applicable to guns bought after you got the license. In orther words those guns bought earlier have to be put into your C&R record book if you sell them.

Terry G

Discussion Starter · #20 · Sep 13, 2004

I appreciate all the information, gentlemen. I did some research and talked to ATFE, and you are correct that C&R's can be sold as you choose to "improve your collection". Keep your records straight and you will have no problems, as long as your buying, selling is within reason.

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