[Glenn Bartley]

some people seem to be upset easily by written words

guess it's easier to stay centered in the midst of real aggression?

Originally posted by Krept in another thread, and maybe I am wrong but I think Krept was referring to how some people get upset by Andy/223Fan/ GunKid, et al, or et al all rolled into one! Well whatever, the quoted words got me to thinking that how people react to small stressors is not necessarily the same manner in which they will react to larger scale STHF and, or more dangerous situations.

I for one believe it is easier to stay in control during a dangerously aggressive situation or during a SHTF scenario than it is to stay centered, as you say, in a written thread with certain people who are consistently derogatory. I find this to be true generally speaking across the board for the great majority of people who have handled themselves well during SHTF scenarios. I speak from experience in this regard, but can only speak from experience for myself and for the others whom I have witnessed regarding the same. I base my across the board type of finding because of the numbers of other people whom I have witnessed in both high stress situations and during verbal tauntings. I have witnessed quite a few hundred people who were operating at high stress levels, and they were able to do so well in very dangerous situations; however the great majority of them would often lose it during both verbal/written put down or pestering confrontations that were mild in comparison.

Seems to be a fact of life: when it comes to taunting, most everyone's :hot: fuse can be lit once you figure how. That goes for even they among us who pride themselves for never losing their tempers - there is always something that can light it pretty quickly among the arsenal of the skilled :nyah: taunter. To reach that level usually does not take too long with anyone for a very skilled ball buster, taunter or insulter. If not so skilled then constantly repeated taunts, aggressive talk, put downs, etc. will usually do the trick if the taunting party is persistent enough. When such becomes constant or almost constant, it often causes the receiver of these jabs to become irritated enough to retaliate in a like manner or even in an elevated manner. Not much to it really, just a normal reaction to aggression even if the aggression is only in the form of taunts or other irritating verbal or written exchanges.

The thing is though, the same person who may be easily brought into bad humor or to bad temper by such taunts, may also be the person who becomes steely in his/her determination to reach :grabbit: out and take hold of the situation during SHTF scenarios. The reasoning behind this is not known to me but I suspect that, in many cases (but certainly not all cases), it may have to do with people who are the survivors of psychologically and or physically traumatic events. These type of people are often very easy to irritate by way of verbal confrontation and are often those who are considered 'high strung' (even or maybe especially when it is not realized that they are trauma survivors); yet they can be depended upon, to act appropriately, in truly dangerous situations and often wind up working in jobs where the dangerous situations repeat themselves on a fairly regular basis. I think this probably about equally also applies to people who have not been badly traumatized, but it is more evident in them because more of them have been studied than have people with non-traumatic experiences but yet who react likewise along these lines.

Hey Krept, Thanks for the idea for a new thread.

 

[Magnum88C]

Well, I didn't understand this either until I'd met people who were like this and talked to them, now I really understand having gone through real SHTF (traumatic) events. Basically, you learn to concentrate on what is important, and your tolerance for bull<font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font> goes way down. If it's moronic and unimportant, or worse can actually get someone taking the advice/taunting to heart hurt, you just don't want to hear it.

The short bus rider is the kind of [self censored] that will get people killed in a real situation and will shortly find himself going out on patrol and not coming back. If he tries his idiot tactics for real, he will be found, taken, skinned and his carcass put on a pole. And he's too stupid to listen to people when they tell him WHY it won't work.

Unfortunately, his kind of browbeating easily influences weak people to follow him. It'll be like lemmings running off the cliff following their leader. The only thing keeping people like this from getting their comeuppance is laws that favor criminals. Once those laws no long apply (his beloved armaggeddon scenario), the problem will quickly be resolved.

But, Admin, Mods, don't expect the real people to just sit by and watch this kind of crap to go on without saying something. Only thing I can say is that it's been pretty even-handed on Rich's part both ways, unlike a lot of other places.

 

[andy]

maybe, but it AINT likely. youve never SEEN REAL shtf conditions, anyway. Nobody has, in fact. shtf means paper money is asswipe, no power in the lines, and IT AINT COMING BACK ON, no fuel for the vehicles, no water in the pipes, etc. THAT will be so stressful that most will go insane, suididal, mass homicidal, etc, within mere days. they CAN'T do without their caffeine, fatty foods, nicotine, sugar, MTV, music, etc.

 

[andy]

u can't even handle mere MATCH stress. That's why you come in C or D class, bottom half of competitors, even at little LOCAL matches.

 

[andy]

I've known several guys who could almost beat me in practice, yet had trouble posting consisent B class scores at matches, especially at regional or State level "big" matches. You oughta try WORLD CHAMP pressures, with TV CAMERAS on ya,some time, see how close you come to delivering the sort of performance you can show in a practice session. Remember, in a match, you can always shoot at least a BIT worse than your WORST practice session (for that match) and in combat, you can have your performance degraded by as much as 90%. So, since you are merely half assed in mere PRACTICE, you will survive a fight only by LUCK.

 

[Garand]

SHTF is not an IPSC match. IPSC is a bullsh*t game nothing else. It never will be anything else no matter how much you want it to be. People in Florida currently have toilet paper and lots of them think that the Sh*t has hit the fan! And they are right, in their lives the balloon has gone up. Not everyone has such a narrow vision of life, that you do. Many people here have had life threatening experiences and gotten past it. If you want a narrow minded fantasy to rule your life, let it be then. But don't try to force it on us.

 

[Hard Ball]

"in combat, you can have your performance degraded by as much as 90%."

You have never been in combat. You know nothoing about combat stress. Your thoughts on it are utterly worthless.

 

[Glenn Bartley]

maybe, but it AINT likely. youve never SEEN REAL shtf conditions, anyway. Nobody has, in fact. shtf means paper money is asswipe, no power in the lines, and IT AINT COMING BACK ON, no fuel for the vehicles, no water in the pipes, etc. THAT will be so stressful that most will go insane, suididal, mass homicidal, etc, within mere days. they CAN'T do without their caffeine, fatty foods, nicotine, sugar, MTV, music, etc.

Andy,

The following is my opinion, based upon what I get out of your posts. It is nothing more and nothing less:

You apparently, as I see it, have no idea what comprises a real life SHTF scenario. So my educated guess is that when you actually are faced with one, you will likely perish or piss your panties. You compare a SHTF scenario with your own melodramatic fantasies that actually amount to TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it). It makes me wonder if you have molded yourself after the Peter Sellers character Dr. Strangelove in the movie Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb. Dr. Strangelove was the one who repeatedly tried to get the president and the rest of the boys in charge down (with 5 or is it 10 girls to each man) into the salt mines for the next 50 years or so after the doomsday device goes off. Or have you molded yourself after Brigadier General Jack D. Ripper, another character in that movie. Is it the water man? Please tell us so we will all know?

While a catastrophe something along those lines would definitely be a SHTF scenario, it is more appropriately called a TEOTWAWKI situation. While all TEOTWAWKI scenarios are SHTF scenarios, not all SHTF scenarios are TEOTWAWKI. Many SHTF scenarios are much less catastrophic. TEOTWAWKI type of a thing has not been, is not, and will not be the only type of SHTF scenario that any or all of us may face in our lifetimes. Give it a break man and join reality on this one.

For you to say that no one has ever seen SHTF situations is, in my opinion, absolutely ridiculous, let me explain what I think: To imagine for a moment that the Jews in the Nazi death camps and Nazi controlled ghettos during WWII were not experiencing a SHTF scenario is in my mind absurd. To think that when that plane, quite some years ago, crashed into the mountainside down in South America (was it in Chile?) with that soccer team aboard, and those people wound up surviving by eating the flesh of others who had perished was not a SHTF scenario, well that is as I see it preposterous. To say that to suddenly see thousands upon thousands of the advancing Mongolian Horde bearing down upon your position as they rode at full gallop intent upon killing their enemy (of which you were one) is not a SHTF scenario is in my estimation kooky. To say that having your arm caught and smashed under a boulder, and there is no hope of getting help before you die, so you have to saw off your own arm is not a SHTF situation is in my opinion crazy. To say that if someone assaults you out of the blue, and is intent on killing you, and has a deadly weapon is not a SHTF state is in my view moronic.

Apparently though you would fail to see any of these as being SHTF because they are temporary (as per another post in another thread that you wrote recently). Well all of the SHTF scenarios of which you can think are temporary. Some last longer than others, but that is not what makes it such a SHTF predicament. SHTF means that very bad things suddenly are blown your way, and you have to deal with them fast not to get covered by the S part of SHTF. You, on the other hand, seemingly always want to make this an end of the world type of fantastic adventure in which apparently by your own thinking you will be the only one capable of surviving. I figure (and this is my opinion) there is a reason for this, one that is psychological in its nature. To state it plainly it, as I see it, probably has to do with an inability on your part to accept yourself as being good enough. Therefore, my guess is that, there is a need for you to make everyone else look bad, and to push your own image to the utmost regardless of any little bit of actual abilities, or more likely regardless of your lack of the abilities of which you brag. In doing so you seek the esteem of others, but all you mostly wind up probably getting is other people who are pissed off at you and who think you are a jerk, and who realize that you probably do not have, probably never have had, and probably never will have the abilities of which you brag.

My guess is that the more you boast, the more certain are the others of your insecurity and inabilities, thus the more insecure you become, and therefore the more you find yourself needing to brag and the more you find yourself needing to put others down! This last bit about having some limited skills and needing to boast about them is borne out by you incessant return to boasting about your claimed skills as a match target shooter. The part about your need to put others down is evidenced by that recurring theme throughout many if not most of your posts on these forums. The idea of you actually lacking the abilities of which you brag is made clear again and again by the level of, what I believe is, gross incompetence that you exhibit when you write about tactical situations. The idea that you need to brag about things in which you lack skills is evidenced by your repeatedly posting on subjects in which the mainstream of knowledge by recognized experts, and the knowledge of otherwise experienced people in these forums, on those subjects is, in my opinion, in direct opposition to your postings. The idea that this just pisses people off, and that they choose for the great part not to believe you and rather think of you as a jerk is borne out by all of the responses you have received that show those feelings toward you from others. The hypothesis that you will need to repeat this whole process and brag even more will probably, as I see it, be held to the light of truth when you continue to, in my opinion carry on in the same exact circular fashion of: feeling insecure, boasting of your limited skills, bragging of skills you actually don't possess to make yourself seem better than you truly believe you are, putting other people down to make you feel superior, feeling a burst of self esteem, being slammed by other forum members who believe you to be full of Brown Smelly stuff and who support their arguments with data, being humiliated and therefor losing self esteem, once again feeling insecure, whereby the process starts anew.

The above, and the following, of course are only my opinion - but I would be willing to bet it is pretty darned close to what is really going on. Take it or leave it, for what it is worth to you. For you, my guess is that all of what you have been doing on these forums amounts to little more than :headbang:! For us, the other forum users, I think your postings herein these forums have been a combination of a minor :;puke02: irritant, a minor :laugh: amusement, and pitiful :sobstory: example of a man who, in my lay opinion, needs help, and some friends. Most of all though, I think you are an example of a man who needs to develop the ability to accept the fact that many others are at least as good as are you, if not better, before you can actually experience honestly earned self esteem. You can get what you are looking for here, or anywhere, by honsetly changing your attitude for the better and keeping it that way. In the end, as it has been all along, the choice is yours alone. If you make the right one then others (not all because some don't forgive or forget, but enough) will welcome you and hold you in good regard - not for who you were, and not for who you claimed to be, but for the man you will become, for who you truly are at the moment they realize you have honestly changed your attitude for the better and are making yourself stay that way.

Bye the way, don't take me wrong, I am not getting soft in regard to you. As your attitude is now, I would just as soon puke :;puke02: down your throat as I would try to be nice to or accepting of you. If you really do change though, maybe I would be one of them who would show you some acceptance, but I am none to sure of that with the state of current affairs. Man you have a lot of changing to do as far as I am concerned and it would be a tough sell for you to convince others that you have changed - but I imagine since you are human that there is hope.

 

[Garand]

Very well stated!

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Andy,

Oh yeah, one other thought, if ever the SHTF in your Armagedon type dream, then think about what I said above as you are being beaten to death by those who formed a group and who caught you trying to kill one of their members or steal some of their food. Doesn't have to be that way though, and if you change you might even survive.

 

[RIKA]

Some excellent advice Andy. I hope that you will read and really take a good look at yourself and where your life is going.

RIKA

 

[Magnum88C]

WOW GLenn, I thought I was writing a treatise, excellent post.

One word on the whole GK fantasy/Armageddon thing. The REAL Armageddon is outlined in the Bible. But even with that being the worst situation mankind will EVER be in, it still does not quialify as a SHTF for GK. You see, 99% of the people DON'T die, even then. There will still be functioning governments with functioning armies numbered in the hundreds of millions. People will still be buying and selling.

For this reason, is why I say his SHTF will never and CAN never happen.

 

[SatCong]

A well-crafted post, which if understood and accepted, will manifest an epiphany (of sorts). Well, we always have hope...
SatCong

 

[krept]

thanks for that discussion Glenn, lot of stuff I didn't think about regarding survivors of traumatic events, etc.

The question I posed probably sounded rhetorical, but it wasn't meant to be. In the types of situations that we're talking about... from a confrontation in a dark alley to SHTF campaign, I would bet on harassment. I think it was Sun Tzu or another great general that stated "Harass the enemy." It works.

Like you alluded to, verbal harassment gets people uncentered. Someone starts calling you out, it's really easy to get distracted and forget about watching six (have seen this a couple times). In boxing, the jab is used as not only a rangefinder, but also as a harassment... constantly pinging on the opponent, doing a little damage each time, clouding his vision.

During actual combat? Case in point: I received an e-mail related to some ops in Iraq, wish I could find it now. The gist of it is, some Marines were pinned down, in one hell of a firefight. The insurgents were broadcasting from a loudspeaker the usual propaganda "Americans, this will be your tomb! The streets will be washed with your fresh infidel blood" or some such BS. The Marines had their own speaker and translator and had him broadcast in Arabic "You Iraqis fight like homosexuals! Come out here and fight like men!" (but a lot more derogatory). What happens? Some of the insurgents come out from hard cover, guns blazing, and were iced on the spot.

The successful use (and subsequent growth) of PsyOps is also a testament to the effectiveness of harassment.

In general combat, SHTF, etc. I agree people will probably become focused enough to deal with the task at hand. One good quote by the founder of Aikido that applies here is:

"At the instant
A warrior
Confronts a foe,
All things
Come into focus."

In some firefight videos I have seen, even something as simple as the enemy using hard cover can be annoying... not to mention using guerilla tactics, suppressors, starting fires upwind from your position, taunting, etc. Surely when we tire and become frustrated, it's much easier to make bad decisions and knowing how you react to these types of stressors is important.

I guess what I'm really wondering is... if people react to written harassment, if the response of agression is almost a reflex, wouldn't that carry over if harassment were used in a fight, whether it's a gloved fistfight in a ring, or out in the woods with rifles?

Is having two separate mentalities OK? Is it safe to believe we can say "it's OK for me to react to this harassment" when we perceive the situation as non-serious (like online stuff), while later expecting to be calm and watch the bad guys hands while he's calling us every name in the book and it's 100 degrees out?

 

[andy]

shtf, if the guy even KNOWS of your existence in "his" locale, it's bad news, and if you see a rifle armed man in your AO, probably best to just silently shoot him, ASAP. Screw the kid stuff talking.

 

[Aslan]

shtf, if the guy even KNOWS of your existence in "his" locale, it's bad news, and if you see a rifle armed man in your AO, probably best to just silently shoot him, ASAP. Screw the kid stuff talking.

which is how civilization will rebuild after SHTF....everyone will just kill everyone they see until there's only one person left.

The loner who kills everyone they encounter will not survive very long. People tend to get annoyed when friends or family get killed for no reason at all.

ambushes rarely go as planned.

But we're still wanting to understand just what your definition of SHTF is.
Any SHTF will be temporary, unless it kills off every single person on the planet - and by definition, that one ain't worth worrying about...

:devil:

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Andy,

I would hope your eyesight is excellent and that the guy you gun down in such a situation as you just described does not wind up being a brother, a son, your wife, or any friendly. I also hope for your sake he is not hunting the psychotic killer who is stalking you at that moment.

This is not kid stuff talking, but something that you could use to save your arse in any SHTF scenario.

 

[Rich Z]

which is how civilization will rebuild after SHTF....everyone will just kill everyone they see until there's only one person left.

The loner who kills everyone they encounter will not survive very long. People tend to get annoyed when friends or family get killed for no reason at all.

ambushes rarely go as planned.

But we're still wanting to understand just what your definition of SHTF is.
Any SHTF will be temporary, unless it kills off every single person on the planet - and by definition, that one ain't worth worrying about...

:devil:

That sort of thing is exactly why farmers eradicated predators that were harrassing their stock. So if it becomes known that there is someone out in the woods killing people who happen by, guess what will happen? And people WILL form groups after SHTF. Any loner out there that is recognized as a danger to them WILL be hunted down and eliminated.

BTW, while reading Glenn's post, an idea popped into my mind. Do you suppose the reason that some people would almost worship a SHTF (or better yet TEOLAWKI) event is because their current station in life is so unbearable that such an event could only make things better for them? The elimination of a centralized government, all laws and rules proven moot by circumstances, and no one having any lasting identity or past might be very attractive to the alternative of living every day just like yesterday was. Assuming they were one of the few to survive the situation, for them, the slate of life would have been wiped clean and a new start begun. This could be a very attractive fantasy to some people, I guess.

 

[Magnum88C]

BTW, while reading Glenn's post, an idea popped into my mind. Do you suppose the reason that some people would almost worship a SHTF (or better yet TEOLAWKI) event is because their current station in life is so unbearable that such an event could only make things better for them? The elimination of a centralized government, all laws and rules proven moot by circumstances, and no one having any lasting identity or past might be very attractive to the alternative of living every day just like yesterday was. Assuming they were one of the few to survive the situation, for them, the slate of life would have been wiped clean and a new start begun. This could be a very attractive fantasy to some people, I guess.

That's been hypothecized about the short bus rider for quite a while actually.

Another thing to consider is that ol' Melvin here had a bad habit of falling apoart in matches, and spraying half his rounds into the dirt (albeit very quickly), which is why he thinks minor stressors such as match stress, are such a big deal, he can't handle even that low of a stress level, and can't imagine combat being any different.

Like one guy gave me a lecture on why people shouldn't carry guns for defense: "because someone comes up and calls your mother a whore, you're going to whip out your gun and shoot them. Someone cuts you off on the highway and you'll whip your gun out and shoot them. . ." and so on and so on. Knowing this guy fairly well, he has little control of his temper, and flies off the handle for nothing, fairly sociopathic. So he thinks everyone will react like he does, and those are really fears about what HE would do if HE carried.

Much like Melvin, he falls apart under minor stress, so he thinks everyone does.