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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
when you need a pistol, that much I know for a fact, and if you always incorporate going Weaver into your draw, training will do that for you, too. At the sub 10 ft ranges that cover 99% of what a civilian has to do in self defense, that should do it just fine, given a good load and lots of practice at rapidfire. The attacker either ceases INSTANTLY, or he's got 4-5 holes in his chest, within in a second.
 

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I find the isoscoles stance is superior in real world situations.
 

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Hard Ball, has been there, done it, got the T shirt and survived to wear it. I believe in listening to experience.
 

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"I find the isoscoles stance is superior in real world situations."

Being in a hurry when I posted that I did not say why I think the isocoles is bette. In the real world you may have to engage targets to your left or right and the isoscoles allows smoother, faster swings on to target over a wider arc.
 

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Stup*kid,

Sub 10 ft range and a Weaver Stance? You are going to get that rubber gun you play with shoved up your arse if you do that gunboob. Sub 10ft is retention shooting range (but what do you know of retention shooting, right gunboob?)

I really don't care one way or another about weaver .vs Iso or whatever. For longer distance either will work fine if you train well. What most people don't do is practice moving while shooting, moving targets, shooting while moving AND the targets are moving, one handed shooting, weak hand DRAWING and shooting, and learning to not expose oneself for more than a few seconds at a time. All that while in low light condition.

Just about everyone, especially the IPSC crowd, never do that. Stup*kid never got anywere near that. All his was fantacy 'johnny ringo' stupid stuff and SHTF jirkoffs.
 

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I'd agree. Inside of 10 feet or so and that gun should probably not be anywhere near full extention. Inside of 5 and it should probably be firmly in a retention position.

Weaver stance also blades your body toward the target. If you've done any training at all, you'd know that turning the body away from the target and not keeping the hips and shoulders aligned and squared to the oncoming opponent's force is a great way to get knocked on your fanny!

Modern iso is a generally better way to go, imo.
 

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The Weaver stance works well in matches, but not so well on the street.
 

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"Center Axis Relock" - Strong hand basically on sternum, muzzle pointed down, left (if right handed), & forward. No blind spots created, no extended arms or weapon easily vulnerable to "grabs", and very fast into action. Ends up in a slightly "bladed" stance, i.e. Weaver-like.

Clearing a building, etc, it keeps the gun very close-in to your body, and with very little practice, is plenty "defense-accurate" at close range.
 

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John that looks ok if the bad guys are at a distance, from what I see here,

http://www.mlefiaa.org/CAR.html

but what about jamming people coming at you hard and fast from inside of 5 feet or so? Is there an even more secure retention position taught which allows the free hand to deflect and strike and the gun to be held even further back? Also, I still really don't like a bladed stance for ECQ. Having messed around with blue guns, airsoft and sim guns a little bit, I can tell you from experience that you will get plowed over if you're not fairly square to the other guy. Most of the guys in the above webpage pics are pretty sloppy, too...I've had it drilled into my head that if possible, you should be in a stance you feel comfortable fighting from, not standing with your center of gravity high and looking like a ballerina. :D

The close retention position I was taught is part of the drawstroke. Bill Rogers was the originator, and I've seen it demonstrated on Jim Grover/Kelly McCann's Hangun Combatives tape series and again in SouthNarc's articles over on Selfdefenseforums.com and in his classes. It's probably easiest to just look at pictures rather than my blathering about it, so here's a link. You'll have to sign up to be a member to view the pics:

http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=713
 

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There very possibly is a quicker-response handgun position, but I don't know it. Always willing to learn, though.

If someone surprises me from inside five feet, I'm likely hosed; as I don't have Bruce Lee's speed.

(Although I do have Bruce Campbell's chin.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
u TRY knocking me on my fanny, sometime. :) The only way A Weaver makes you "vulnerable" is if you are SLOW with it. The above was about the DRAW, and inside 6 ft, if the gun AINT in hand already, an unarmed response will be FAR faster. The trouble is, most people's hand to hand stuff is pathetically ineffective, and they KNOW it. That's why they are fixated on the gun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I've had MANY a guy try to "cut" me with rolled up newspaper, from 5-6 ft away, against my "low ready". Nobody's ever succeeded yet, but then I aint SLOW. :)
 

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John, there's nothing real fancy to the integrated handgun/combatives stuff. In fact, I find the simplicity of the whole thing ingenious. The gun is in a retention position with the base of the thumb pressed against the outside of the pec with the muzzle angled slightly down and the other hand ready to jam, deflect, elbow, or all of the above. If you view the supporting arm as a battering ram with your body providing the momentum you can see how you can deflect and arrest someone's forward drive. When there's a clear line of fire, start dumping rounds into them. As soon as you can, head to their flank and start moving the pistol out into a more extended position. If they have friends, you'll have to repeat the process.

Consider also that you might dump a full magazine into someone and they keep coming. If you don't have a default cover/retention position, what will you do if they don't drop right away, even with a bunch of leaking holes in their torso? Also, if the gun gets muzzle averted, you're probably going to start grappling with someone, and that gets very, very ugly. That elbow helps keep them off you.
 

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andy said:
They are going to run into my FOOT before such things happen. :)

Hmm..reactionary, dismissive, based on a wargaming mindset in which everything is going to go down like a cross between Tae Kwon Do sparring and an IPSC match...

Just what I've come to expect from you! Keep it up!
 
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