Arms Locker banner

1 - 10 of 10 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,117 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
have to aim at the guy's shoulder at 45m, because you have ruined the relationship between your pistol's sights, bullet, and gravity. Groups will be tight, but low, and off to the side upon which you are lying.

Prone makes no sense as a pistol position, altho it's fine for the rifle, for a number of reasons. Supine (or the fetal rolled up onto your back, or sitting, if need be, to see your target, make more sense. You do have to practice a lot, however, or risk shooting your feet,legs,etc.

Few guys know that long range rifle match shooting used to be done from Creedmore, feet towards the target, barrel held between the feet. It required weirdo sights, and a zero that had nothing in common with other firing positions, so it was abandoned.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,279 Posts
What kind of tactical situation would cause you to choose to fire a handgun from the fetal position? Seems line you're robbing yourself of the ability to maneuver and go from cover to cover. More explanation please.

RIKA
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,950 Posts
What kind of tactical situation would cause you to choose to fire a handgun from the fetal position? Seems line you're robbing yourself of the ability to maneuver and go from cover to cover. More explanation please.
I think it's called the "downed officer position" to simulate an officer that was wounded during a firefight, but not completely out of the game. I believe this originated after the infamous Miami firefight and is now taught to all federal agents during training.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,279 Posts
krept said:
I think it's called the "downed officer position" to simulate an officer that was wounded during a firefight, but not completely out of the game. I believe this originated after the infamous Miami firefight and is now taught to all federal agents during training.
That sounds reasonable but why use the position if you are not wounded.

RIKA
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,950 Posts
Not necessarily fetal, but on the back (supine) I can see using to minimize your kill zone for the other guy if there is no cover or concealment available (e.g. proverbial "open field," empty parking lot, fatal funnel/hallway... anywhere where running would give you a high probability of being shot)Theory is to put the more expendable body parts towards the incoming fire. Have never had the opportunity to train like this, but it is taught. Can't think of a reason to use fetal.

Someone who recently took Jim Cirillo's Close Quarters Survival Course said:

The downed defender drills were very useful and kind of fun, though they were a bit painful for me to do. I've been nursing some tendonitis in my left shoulder, so I really had to tune in and concentrate while lying on my shoulder and during the left-hand-overhead shots. Fact is, I'm pretty sure my target wouldn't have looked so good if I hadn't had to concentrate so hard on what I was doing in order to tune out the pain. In any case, the downed defender skills seemed to be a fairly important addition to the skills box -- especially as the lesson learned wasn't so much how to shoot in the particular position we were shooting in, but that we could shoot from an awkward position and still get our hits as long as we could still see the sights.

Downed defender positions were as follows:



Lying on one's back, head toward the target, with hands over the head (e.g. upside down), 2 handed, 6 shots

Lying on back, same position, right hand only, 6 shots

Lying on back, same position, left hand only, 6 shots

Lying fetal position, right side, gun between the knees, 2 hands, 6 shots

Fetal position, right side, right hand only, gun between the knees, 6 shots

Fetal position, right side, left hand only, gun on top of uppermost knee, 6 shots

Fetal position, left side, ditto to each the above, total of 18 shots
cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,117 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
fetal is for when their AINT any cover, obviously. Maybe YOU can't get up and move quickly from a horizontal position, but I sure can. I teach it as a simplification. Going prone is stupid, with the pistol, because at typical ranges, doing so doesn't make you less of a target, and it puts your head where it can be KICKED. No point in having to THINK about what position or direction you go if you "go down". So I teach supine, period. Prone is for the rifleman. When you use the weak hand to clear your concealing garment, it isn't AVAILABLE for breaking your fall (ie, going prone). However, you can fall backwards, by bending at the knee, and falling back onto butt or hip and then shoulders, keeping head forward, without likelihood of much, if any injury, and be drawing the gun as you do so. Quite often, you will need to be leaping backward, to avoid a knife or club, ya know. Doing so is pretty likely to end up with you on your back, and then, if you know how to alternate "stomping" kicks with either foot, at his knees, shins, etc, you can keep him off of you while you shoot him.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,117 Posts
Discussion Starter #8 (Edited by Moderator)
Just because YOU ****** never heard of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist, isn't a good tactic, etc. It just means you ************* never heard of it, which is more the usual than the exception, anyway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,783 Posts
andy said:
Doing so is pretty likely to end up with you on your back, and then, if you know how to alternate "stomping" kicks with either foot, at his knees, shins, etc, you can keep him off of you while you shoot him.
Assuming you can get your pocket pistol out, with your legs flailing about like that.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,118 Posts
The fetal position, prone position, on the back prone position are all useful when training "Officer Down" tactical shooting. The fetal position offers protection to the abdomen and chest (if you can get your legs up and in enough), it also offers a fairly decent shooting position from behind certain types of limited cover such as a sidewalk curb (even for a shooter who is not Officer Down=wounded). There are four variation sof the fetal position, on left side body pararell to target, on right side body likewise, on left side body perpendicular to target feet toward target, and on right side likewise. Which position may depend upon how you fall, or what cover you have.

The prone position and pone on the back position also are methods taught during Officer Down tactical training. They have their place and usefulness just as much as does the fetal position. For anyone to indicate that the prone position is not a position to be taught for tactical pistol shooting indicates to me that said person knows little about tactics. This position, as would the prone on the back position, are taught as part of Officer Down training because it just may be that the officer is down because he was wounded in the lower spine or in the legs and can not stand or move his legs. It instances like that it would be nearly impossible for an officer to assume the fetal position in a timely manner even if he/she pulled his/her legs into place (when taking the time to be pulling them into place it is likely he/she would be wounded again). So the officers are taught how to shoot from these positions also. Does this offer a tactical advantage to the shooter. It surely does. It also gives the officer a certain mindset, that being that just because he or she is down does not equal he or she is out but rather that they are still able to fight.
 
1 - 10 of 10 Posts
Top