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Discussion Starter #1
without any blood loss or organ damage. Those who claim shock doesn't exist are simply fos. So the issue is really one of:"How to maximize the shock effect of a handgun bullet?" The only way that makes any sense is to do it the way rifles do it. With high velocity and reliable expansion of a bullet.

So, is the 2300 fps of an AK rd NOT "high velocity"? That's at the MUZZLE. Does an AK softpoint hunting load not tear up chest vitals, even at a "mere" 75m, where it's down to 2100 fps?
 

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Well, just raw mass has got to figure into the equation somewhere. Otherwise I could use a flashlight as a weapon, firing those photons off at the speed of light whenever I switch it on. At what point does energy become negligible if you don't have sufficient mass? And at what point does energy become negligible if you don't have sufficient velocity? I believe you need both, but not necessarily in equal doses.

At what point is the balance perfect for a firearm launched projectile? Well, perfect for what? Well, I would guess "stopping power". But what factors make that happen when we really don't know what will "stop" in all situations?
 

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NASA knows that a 5 gr projectile, at

15,000 fps, will blow a 1.5" hole in 1.5" thick, hard anodized aluminum tank armor. It was an aspirin sized wafer, made of plastic, fired out of a "rail gun".

A lot of VERY experienced combat vets all said .30 Carbine ball ammo sufficed, out to 75m, anyway. At that range, the .30 c's blunt bullet is down to 1700 fps and 700 ft lbs, and it over penetrates men's torso's, too. So it delivers at most 600 ft lbs.

Cirillo, NYPD stakeout specialist, saw a few men get shot with a special 100 gr, 2000 fps .30 Carbine load, and was quite impressed with it, but remember, hit or miss, stop or not stop, is the same 50-50 outcome as a coin toss's heads or tails. 3-4 straight "heads" or tails, in as many tosses, is a commonplace thing, and 5-6 straight are not unheard of, by any means. So unless you've actually seen about a dozen CHEST hits, on as many men, with your own eyes, you don't know a thing beyond what can easily be just luck, misperception, or outright lies.

For instance, LaGuarde lied in his book GUNSHOT INJURIES, about what really happened when he and Thompson tested 7 different handgun loads on steers, in 1907. The .45 auto was not tested by them at ALL. The .45 L Colt was (I think) the .455 Webley, 476 Eley. The first day, they shot 1 steer with each of 6 loads, in the guts, 1 minute per shot. ALL were still standing after 6 minutes, and were killed with a sledgehammer.

They abandoned THAT bs approach, and next day, "rapidfired" the guns into the chests of another 7 steers. one was a retest, I forget why. The FASTEST drop was with .38 L Colt, and on autopsy, was proven to be the result of a severed aorta, and still took 40 seconds.

A man can easily be shooting, clubbing or stabbing you 4x per second, with EACH hand, so only an IDIOT considers even a 1 second interval (between shot and stop) to be an acceptable standard. Blood loss ALWAYS takes at least 5 seconds to shut down a man. This is easily proven, with a choke hold. So blood loss, or loss of organ function (other than the brain, or the spine above the attacment point for the nerves to the arms) is a lost cause as a hope for stopping a man.

Only shock has the potential for the INSTANTANEOUS stop that is needed for realistic effectiveness. Sure, shock can fail, but it's your only realistic hope. 223 sp's are easily PROVEN, with chest hits, to put big dogs down, and they can't get up again, 48 or more times out of 50 shootings. 230 gr .45 jhp's do NOTHING of the kind (much less ball ammo) A million people in the US are dog bitten each year, and as many more escape such a fate, by pure luck. So a defensive handgun's performance against dogs IS relevant. The .45 has the SAME momentum and 4x the "frontal area" (of the bullet) as does the .223, so obviously, the far greater energy (actually transferred by the .223 sp) is doing SOMETHING desirable. We CAN match (as proven on animals) the performance of the 223 rifle (especially if the rifle is used at 50-100m, where we KNOW it's still very effective against dogs)
 

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I remember reading and article about the .224 BOZ round that was a necked down 10mm (I think) to a .224 projectile. Still, I believe it only achieved 2200 fps or so, and did not match the .223. I think it would be rather tough to get 3200 fps out of a pistol length barrel without some extreme pressures using a 55 grain projectile.

But maybe a .17 is more feasible.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
223, using 70 gr Speer sp, out of 18"

barrel, typical loads, is 2700 fps, yet it still does a FINE job on big dogs, to 100 yds, where it's down to 2300 fps.

Think about THIS. A 12 ga hp slug will blow apart a water filled, sealed, 5 gallon bucket, even tho that slug "only" has 1400 fps. So it's obvious that a large ENOUGH frontal area means that you don't HAVE to have 223 type velocity, in order to still do 223 sp type temporary cavity damage to the fragile chest organs. With the exception of the heart, the lungs, spleen, liver, are VERY fragile indeed. That's why the ribcage evolved, to protect them.

The .45 is 4x the frontal area of a 223 bullet. Get a 70 gr, 3 segment .45 prefrag going 2300 fps, shoot some animals with it, and you will see that I am correct in this. That's what matters, you know, the effect on flesh and blood, not the fps showing on the chronograph.

The 3200 fps sp's, are still VERY effective at 200m, where they are down to 2400 or so fps, you know. :) Who shoots coyotes at the muzzle of a 223? Not many.
 
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