[andy]

5 is a great plenty, since you'll never be able to USE more than 1 30 rder, (in any one fight), by yourself, and live to tell about it, except by pure luck. You just CAN'T reasonably expect to MISS with more than about 3/4of your rds, and still win, except by luck, and if you are up against more than a dozen DETERMINED, auto rifle armed guys, you aint going to make it, except by pure luck. They are going to put so much lead into the air that you can't do crap.

The ONLY realistic tactic is to stick to either thick cover or darkness, and 'hole up" during the day if you aint got such cover. By using such tactics, you are very unlikely to ever need more than 5-6 shots in any one encounter, and only rarely will you survive needing more than 2-3.

You'd BETTER not need more than the silenced .22 unit, more often than 1 time in 10. If you do, only luck is going to save you. You are already screwing up WAY too much,letting the enemy detect YOU, before you are aware of them. If you are aware, you detect them FIRST,and either just avoid them, or ambush them. With a proper ambush, you hit 3-6 of them before they can do jack crap, and you are gone before they can make any sort of organized move against you.

Carrying lots of centerfire ammo just means that you FIGURE on screwing up a lot. Best fix that.

 

[mrostov]

You have absolutely no way whatsoever of knowing any of that that other than your own speculation. Sometimes you have no choice but to fight.

By using such tactics, you are very unlikely to ever need more than 5-6 shots in any one encounter, and only rarely will you survive needing more than 2-3.

THAT is called a, "Recipe for being a dead man."

Real life says, "Carry lots of bang." Events, practical experience, and historical examples in the real world directly contradict much of what you are saying. Movie ninjas and Mack Bolan are fiction.

On the subject of ammunition, far, far, far, far better to bring lots more than you need than even one round too few.

One of the names for guys who don't bring enough ammo is, 'fertilizer'.

On my LBV I carry 6 - 30 round USGI M-16 mags + a spare 20 rounder full of tracer + one 30 rounder in the weapon + 4 extra 8 round M1911 mags on the LBV + 2 extra on the gunbelt + 2 extra in the holster's pouch + 1 in the M1911 + 1 Ceiner mag on the LBV. My gun belt is just that, a dedicated gunbelt, and it is worn separately from the LBV and doesn't interfere with it. Part of the LBV is a USGI pistol belt so that part may confuse some readers.

That's 9 - 8 round mags of .45ACP and 7 - 30 round mags and 1 -20 round mag of 5.56mm. That's 230 rounds of 5.56mm and 73 rounds of .45ACP (an extra .45 round in the chamber).

Oh yeah, and one 10 round Ciener mag of .22LR on the LBV plus an emergency reserve of 130 rounds of .22LR in a USGI compass pouch for hunting. That's a total of 140 rounds of .22LR ammo. The Ciener is a emergency/survival hunting tool, not a combat item. The real estate on my LBV dedicated to it is one custom pouch that holds the Ciener unit and it's mag and a USGI compass pouch that tightly holds two plastic containers, each with 65 rounds of .22LR hollowpoint ammo, securely packed so it makes no noise.

So, my full load on my LBV and in my weapons is 230 rounds of 5.56mm, 73 rounds of .45ACP, and 140 rounds of .22LR.

That's just what I have on me which is not counting what I can toss into the truck or have in my ruck and detachable buttback. If the sh^t looks like it's going to be intense, like I'm defending a certain position or area, I can quickly attach to my LBV a couple of LBE style 30 round mag pouches for 6 extra 30 round USGI M-16 mags. That's an extra 180 rounds.

And no, it's not too heavy.

 

[John in AR]

While that sounds realistic and reasonable on the surface, I've learned differently from experience. (In training and gaming, not true combat, I confess.)

Using Simunition M4's, role-playing terrorist and hostage roles while in training exercises for srt and military teams, I used to carry the M4 with five (one in gun, four spare) 21-round magazines, and a simunition handgun with two spare mags, either 1911 or Glock.

I now carry seven rifle mags, because I've more than once run dry when carrying the four spares. Yes, I missed a lot; I'm going against superior numbers of usually higher-trained people, who have superior equipment. (Night vision with IR lights and IR lasers, etc.) And shooting while running is sometimes unavoidable, which means "wasted" ammo.

In real post-shtf life, it's entirely possible to be facing the same odds; so it's reasonable to allow for them.

 

[andy]

you'll get killed anyway, if stupidly let yourself get IN such a predicament. As I've told you before, try it in the woods, you with a can, them without, SEE what Happens. wtf you gotta be in a building for, and why would you not split the INSTANT you noticed you were up against big trouble, hmm? that would just be stupid, and post shtf, stupid-=fatal.

 

[Aslan]

you'll get killed anyway, if stupidly let yourself get IN such a predicament. As I've told you before, try it in the woods, you with a can, them without, SEE what Happens. wtf you gotta be in a building for, and why would you not split the INSTANT you noticed you were up against big trouble, hmm? that would just be stupid, and post shtf, stupid-=fatal.

You can still encounter superior forces in the woods. You may not have the choice of dictating whether or not the contact takes place.

To just blindly assume it will never happen to you, just means that you will be totally unprepared when it does.

And unprepared = stupid. and as you say, stupid = fatal. Assuming everyone is more inept than you are is also stupid.

In fact, you are more likely to expend a lot of ammo in a break contact scenario in the woods - bet you can't guess why.

:devil:

 

[mrostov]

you'll get killed anyway, if stupidly let yourself get IN such a predicament.

Not really. You don't understand how to really fight with a rifle. You try that shooting range plinking bullsh^t with your .22LR unit and you're going to find out why patrols of serious men carry lots of ammo.

As I've told you before, try it in the woods, you with a can, them without, SEE what Happens.

You WAY overestimate what a suppressor can do.

Odds are you'll get killed wandering into someone else's AO before you even get a chance to use that 'can'.

wtf you gotta be in a building for, and why would you not split the INSTANT you noticed you were up against big trouble, hmm? that would just be stupid, and post shtf, stupid-=fatal.

You aren't realistically looking at what you call 'shtf'. You assume that it'll be this 'flipping of a light switch'. You don't understand what's actually going to happen.

There are hundreds of millions of structures in this country, many also in remote places. Come winter, you'll wish you had one.

But, you will have one because you're going to hole up in the cozy place you have now, and you'd be a fool if you didn't.

You think you can live like an animal in a hole, and you think everyone else should also, but you won't even go out and try it, let alone backpack for a few days.

I chalk that idea up there with the mylar blanket BS. Sounds nifty on paper, but it doesn't work in the real world.

 

[John in AR]

"...you'll get killed anyway, if stupidly let yourself get IN such a predicament."

I didn't list any particular predicament or scenario. I've been through the same "run-dry" experience while it was 'mandated' that I stay inside one building, when I was limited to one building but could could leave & re-enter thru doors, windows, etc; and also when having free run of an entire village, including in & out of buildings, with streets, alleys, etc.

With the guys that are hunting me, darkness is irrelevant, since they have the best hands-free night vision gear our tax dollars can buy them. So holing up & waiting for dark means no more than holing up & waiting for dawn.

"How much ammo to carry" is one of those subjective, relative things that we wish we could nail as an absolute, but can't honestly do. Since you flatly say: "...you'll never be able to USE more than 1 30 rder, (in any one fight), by yourself, and live to tell about it, except by pure luck...", to hold that to an abolute standard would mean that more than one is unnecessary; so why need five at all? Maybe one or two for spares in case of loss or damage, but five?


Yet you advocate not only carrying more than one mag, you advocate carrying more than one loaded mag; why? In the same approximate space of one loaded 30-rounder, you can carry four 20-round boxes of ammo, so carrying that extra loaded mag "costs" 50-rounds worth of space in the pack. There must be a reason for carrying multiple loaded mags; which you recommend.

I know you wouldn't intentionally carry just the one mag that's in the gun; neither would I. Since we agree that just a "loaded gun" isn't enough, the only unresolved issue is the other end of the question; how MANY spares to carry....?

All I can say is that from personal experience, I have used more than a hundred rounds in one "engagement" and still survived. Not always, not even usually, but it's happened more than once. And yes, I've also been "killed" with the initial magazine still mostly full in the gun. Sometimes you lose.

If I had a crystal ball, I could be pefectly prepared. Lacking that, I have to admit that since I don't know what the future holds, the possibility does exist that it holds all kinds of ugly potential. Could be facing one lone gangbanger with a Raven .25 and the tactical skills of a pregnant yak; could be facing a dozen extremely-well armed people (read: agents, officers, soldiers, etc), that have equipment, support, re-supply, and other capabilities I just won't have access to.

More ammo is like more muscle; you may or may not need it, but having it absolutely provides you with more options than not having it.

 

[andy]

I never said CARRY 5. I said OWN 5. One is just a spare. Carry THREE, not 4, not 5. #4 is just for use at making a chopper back off, far enough to get down a manhole or similar way of getting "lost". Wouldn't bother to carry it. The other 2 mags are just a handy way to carry the other 62 rds of 223, and are present in case of loss or breakage. SOME of the dead are going to be laying there with 223 ammo, and some of those will have AR-M16 mags, so it's of no concern. The nvd thing is of no real concern either. Batteries aint gonna be around long, after shtf. The few thousand guys who START with such gear won't have it for long. The odds of running into more than ONE such guy are so small that it's not an issue.

The fact remains that IF you COULD leave the area, and you DIDN'T, what happened is just a lesson in how stupid it is to stay and fight when outnumbered by guys with real gear and ability. Make them look for you in a 10 mile radius, that SAME night, and see how "well" they do. If they wait til dawn, the radius will be 20 miles, and might well be hundreds of miles, if you found a vehice. Who is taking care of their families, post shtf, while they do all this searching for you, hmm? aint happening, so why worry about it? It's a non issue.

 

[Aslan]

The mag for maging a chopper back off - I'm assuming you will have a full mag of tracers?

Two things - twenty (or even 30) rounds of tracer might not even be seen by the guys in the chopper, and if it is, it pinpoints your location nicely to people on the ground, as well as in the chopper.

but if you think making the chopper back off will work, then good for you. (I'm just wondering if you've ever been in a chopper? Especially one with a modern thermal imager.)

:devil:

 

[Aslan]

Batteries be around for long? Once again, you are underestimating what you are up against.

Batteries can be recharged.

There are batteries that have indefinite shelf life, because they aren't chemically active until you activate them.

To just dismiss a threat is being stupid. stupid = dead.

:devil:

 

[RIKA]

I believe that choppers travel in pairs in dangerous territory. When one or the other of them sees those tracers, the gunner's MG will turn you into a bloody little rag doll. You would be much better off to slide down your rathole than engage.

RIKA

 

[Terry G]

Let's cut to the chase here. As my old platoon Sergeant said "There is no such thing as too much ammo." I routinely carried 35 18 round magazines in the field and four .45 magazines. I have that many on hand, not that I'll ever need them.

 

[Garand]

Does your parole officer know that you OWN 5 rifle magazines. I'm sorry you can't tell him gunkid/erika because you have admitted that your scared of him. You should carry what your tactical situation realisticly demands. That said, its better to have to many and not need them, then need them and not have them.

 

[mrostov]

The Huey is going the way of the dodo and the Blackhawk is filling it's shoes.

Do you know how hard it is to knock a Blackhawk down? They ain't a glass bottom Huey.

The only thing you're gonna do with an 11.5" CAR-15 is piss off the crew chief with the mini-gun.

The last thing that'll go through your mind is about 400 rounds of ammunition.

 

[John in AR]

...#4 is just for use at making a chopper back off, far enough to get down a manhole or similar way of getting "lost". Wouldn't bother to carry it...

How do you use it, for a chopper or anything else, if you're not carrying it?

The other 2 mags are just a handy way to carry the other 62 rds of 223, and are present in case of loss or breakage.

It's sometimes possible to put 31 rounds in a 30-round mag, but I keep mine with just 28. I agree about the loss or breakage issue, as I mentioned.

...The nvd thing is of no real concern either. Batteries aint gonna be around long, after shtf. The few thousand guys who START with such gear won't have it for long. The odds of running into more than ONE such guy are so small that it's not an issue.

I'm not convinced that post-shtf would mean total mad-max type anarchy. IMO, the existence of some type of governmental presence is not only possible, but likely; either ours, UN's, whoever's. If so, I have confidence that big brother could find flashlight batteries.

The fact remains that IF you COULD leave the area, and you DIDN'T, what happened is just a lesson in how stupid it is to stay and fight when outnumbered by guys with real gear and ability.

Agree completely, but even in your phrasing you allow that leaving the area might not be possible. That's obviously when you'd want the extra ammo.

Make them look for you in a 10 mile radius, that SAME night, and see how "well" they do. If they wait til dawn, the radius will be 20 miles, and might well be hundreds of miles, if you found a vehice. Who is taking care of their families, post shtf, while they do all this searching for you, hmm? aint happening, so why worry about it? It's a non issue.

The problem (more "complication" than problem), is that I'M the guy with the family to consider, and unless I'm willing to just abandon them and go my lone way if shtf (which I'm not), this greatly complicates things for me as it does for many. I have no doubt there would be a lot of guys who would abandon their dependents under those kind of circumstances, even rationallizing it as an "Either none of us survive or one of us can survive..." kind of reasoning. That's not acceptable to me. My wife & kids are the reason I get out of bed in the morning even now, post-shtf I expect it would be even more so.

Avoiding conflict and even contact is obviously preferable; I'm just talking about the ones either unavoidable or even just unavoided, admittedly through making a mistake.

 

[TODD 3465]

Avoiding conflict and even contact is obviously preferable; I'm just talking about the ones either unavoidable or even just unavoided, admittedly through making a mistake.[/QUOTE]


Like stumbling into someone else's security perimeter while wandering through the deep woods at night with no map or compass. :uhh:

 

[SatCong]

andy,
Why do you want to shoot at bikers?
SatCong

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Andy,

So after the smoke has cleared, if you are still alive having started with less ammo than me, you can say: "I told you so"! The thing is I would be there to hear it, but if you wind up not having enough ammo I'll be telling that same thing to your corpse because when the SHTF don't expect anyone - even a buddy - to throw you a full mag when you run out of ammo. Ammo, there is never enough ammo when the SHTF.

 

[mrostov]

A flawed plan that I havd heard a LOT from would-be survivalists is the prospect of ammo resupply from the 'dead' (re: defeated enemies).

Counting on THAT is a thin hope at best.

 

[Garand]

If you look at wars around the world these days, they are generally "come as you are", much the same if the balloon ever went up.