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guns. If the pattern is tight enough to be worth a HOOT for stopping men at 35m, it's WAY too tight to be of any help at HITTING at 20ft and less , which covers nearly ALL the "in home" situations. If your pattern IS wide enough to be of any help at 10 ft, (ie, 4" or so) it's pretty worthless outside the home. You can't CARRY a shotgun any more than you can carry the auto rifle, and the auto rifle has FAR more versatility if shtf. The pistol, like it or not, has to cover you 90+% of the time. You wont be able to ACCESS a longarm in TIME, even in your home, a great deal of the time, and the odds are 4x as great that you'll be attacked while NOT at home, anyway. So if your pistol, load and skill really ARE good enough to cover you when you are MORE "at- risk", and you HAVE an auto rifle, for shtf, riots, etc, then the shotgun is redundant for defense. There's little point in leaving yet ANOTHER gun loaded, accessible, where kids, drunks, or your ATTACKER can use it irresponsibly, sell it to a punk, etc. The auto rifle is quick to slam a mag into and load. The shotgun's tube has to be LEFT loaded, or it takes a LOT more time and fumbling to get it loaded. So the pistol, WORN always, is by FAR the more practical choice, even for "home defense".

Also, most shotgun blasts are NOT centered on athe chest. so it's a question of whether or not 10 #4 buck pellets suffice, not 24. 00 buck is just as likely to overpenetrate a man or a wall as is a good 223 softpoint, too.

Small birdshot, beyond the range of 2-3 FEET from the muzzle, will NOT reliably penetrate both a heavy winter coat and the sternum, either. SAME guys are stupidly "all worried" about a PISTOL load's NOT penetrating thru cover, etc, and then the SAME bozos advocate #7 1/2 birdshot for "home defense". :) the guy can EASILY be using your refrigerator, couch, etc, as cover,a nd if his bullets are going thru your kid's bedroom walls, you have to stop him even FASTER than if he was shooting at you at your business, in the street, etc.

Extention mags on shotguns "distort" plastic shotshells, causing malfunctions, if they are left fully loaded. They ALSO make the gun slower to maniputlate. a typical 4 rd tube., when you jack the action, doesn't give you a LOT of missing-potential, and you sure CAN miss, when the pattern is only 2-3" wide, as it typically is, at the sub 10 ft ranges typical of home defense.

So don't go "thinking" that because I dont post much about shotguns, that I don't KNOW shotguns. I most assuredly do.
 

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So why does the military issue shotguns in Iraq and Afghanistan? Why did they issue them in WW1 and WW2 and Korea? Could it be that they are special purpose weapons that do their job well?

Your turn.

RIKA
 

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223 fan said:
There's little point in leaving yet ANOTHER gun loaded, accessible, where kids, drunks, or your ATTACKER can use it irresponsibly, sell it to a punk, etc. The auto rifle is quick to slam a mag into and load. The shotgun's tube has to be LEFT loaded, or it takes a LOT more time and fumbling to get it loaded. So the pistol, WORN always, is by FAR the more practical choice, even for "home defense".
Kids? drunks? not in my home. My son has known how to safely handle a firearm longer than he's been able to walk.

Drunks - not in my house.

There are speed loaders for shotguns, and there are magazine fed shotguns as well. As far as leaving the shotgun loaded, vs leavig the pistol loaded. You have a loaded gun in either case.

223 fan said:
Also, most shotgun blasts are NOT centered on athe chest. so it's a question of whether or not 10 #4 buck pellets suffice, not 24. 00 buck is just as likely to overpenetrate a man or a wall as is a good 223 softpoint, too.
Where do you get the info on shotgun blasts? Unsubstantiated claims are just that. Unfortunately, your track record on claims isn't very good.

223 fan said:
Small birdshot, beyond the range of 2-3 FEET from the muzzle, will NOT reliably penetrate both a heavy winter coat and the sternum, either. SAME guys are stupidly "all worried" about a PISTOL load's NOT penetrating thru cover, etc, and then the SAME bozos advocate #7 1/2 birdshot for "home defense". :) the guy can EASILY be using your refrigerator, couch, etc, as cover,a nd if his bullets are going thru your kid's bedroom walls, you have to stop him even FASTER than if he was shooting at you at your business, in the street, etc.
I doubt very seriously that the heavy coat theory will be too much of an issue in phoenix. But I doubt too many punks would be willing to test your theory. I doubt you'd be willing to put it to the test.

The layout of my house pretty much negates the possibility of them hiding behind my furnature or my appliances and engaging me in a shootout. Home defense is defense, not aggression.

The smart person sets themselves up in a defendable postion, in a safe room and calls 911. In order for the bad guy to shoot you, they have to come to you. If you are smart, they won't have any available cover for them to get to you.

Belongings can be replaced. That's what insurance is for. Loved ones can't. That's what home defense is for. Even if you are deadly fast and posess magic ninja skills, they can still get lucky and kill you. Why give them the chance? Make them have to come to you and make it not worth their while to do so.

223 fan said:
Extention mags on shotguns "distort" plastic shotshells, causing malfunctions, if they are left fully loaded. They ALSO make the gun slower to maniputlate. a typical 4 rd tube., when you jack the action, doesn't give you a LOT of missing-potential, and you sure CAN miss, when the pattern is only 2-3" wide, as it typically is, at the sub 10 ft ranges typical of home defense..
Yes, a 2-3" pattern is so much smaller than a .45 or 9mm pattern. :eek:
Hmm, a 2" pattern is 4 times the diameter of a .45, oh well, you're the math expert, you must be right.

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply about the extension tube making the gun slower to manipulate. The action is the same, the stroke length (or semi auto action) is the same. Are you stating that the increased weight will cause problems?

223 fan said:
So don't go "thinking" that because I dont post much about shotguns, that I don't KNOW shotguns. I most assuredly do.
Well, you do a pretty good job of disguising that knowledge. And, actually you post quite a bit about shotguns. It's mostly opinion, wrong, or easily debunked.

You seem to have a real problem with any weapon that is noisy or recoils.

A shotgun is like any other weapon. You have to understand it's strengths and it's weaknesses. Different weapons require different tactics. You try to make everything pistol tactics, including your 11" poodle shooter.

Sometimes the psychological effect of hearing the slide racked is enough to convince people to leave you alone.

You probably know a lot about psychological effects - right?

:devil:
 

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guns. If the pattern is tight enough to be worth a HOOT for stopping men at 35m, it's WAY too tight to be of any help at HITTING at 20ft and less , which covers nearly ALL the "in home" situations. If your pattern IS wide enough to be of any help at 10 ft, (ie, 4" or so) it's pretty worthless outside the home. You can't CARRY a shotgun any more than you can carry the auto rifle, and the auto rifle has FAR more versatility if shtf. The pistol, like it or not, has to cover you 90+% of the time. You wont be able to ACCESS a longarm in TIME, even in your home, a great deal of the time, and the odds are 4x as great that you'll be attacked while NOT at home, anyway. So if your pistol, load and skill really ARE good enough to cover you when you are MORE "at- risk", and you HAVE an auto rifle, for shtf, riots, etc, then the shotgun is redundant for defense. There's little point in leaving yet ANOTHER gun loaded, accessible, where kids, drunks, or your ATTACKER can use it irresponsibly, sell it to a punk, etc. The auto rifle is quick to slam a mag into and load. The shotgun's tube has to be LEFT loaded, or it takes a LOT more time and fumbling to get it loaded. So the pistol, WORN always, is by FAR the more practical choice, even for "home defense".

Also, most shotgun blasts are NOT centered on athe chest. so it's a question of whether or not 10 #4 buck pellets suffice, not 24. 00 buck is just as likely to overpenetrate a man or a wall as is a good 223 softpoint, too.

Small birdshot, beyond the range of 2-3 FEET from the muzzle, will NOT reliably penetrate both a heavy winter coat and the sternum, either. SAME guys are stupidly "all worried" about a PISTOL load's NOT penetrating thru cover, etc, and then the SAME bozos advocate #7 1/2 birdshot for "home defense". :) the guy can EASILY be using your refrigerator, couch, etc, as cover,a nd if his bullets are going thru your kid's bedroom walls, you have to stop him even FASTER than if he was shooting at you at your business, in the street, etc.

Extention mags on shotguns "distort" plastic shotshells, causing malfunctions, if they are left fully loaded. They ALSO make the gun slower to maniputlate. a typical 4 rd tube., when you jack the action, doesn't give you a LOT of missing-potential, and you sure CAN miss, when the pattern is only 2-3" wide, as it typically is, at the sub 10 ft ranges typical of home defense.

So don't go "thinking" that because I dont post much about shotguns, that I don't KNOW shotguns. I most assuredly do.
You got a citation for that?

Plus you seem to be the only one that relies on the spread of the pellets to help with hitting. Everyone I know who has used a shotgun, either defensively or offensively used aimed shots.

Oh, that's right, shotguns make you flinch - now it makes sense.
 
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