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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
i was wondering what the difference is between moly coated bullets and ones that arent? are they going to fly different, different trajectories, faster, or are they even worth the money?
 

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In short:

Molly is a gimmick. In theory it lubricates the bullet so that higher velocities are attainable at less pressure; in practice the gains are very small and the side-effects terrible. If seated optimally in your barrel, usually far past regular cartridge OAL, the slightly reduced friction may enable you to safely work up 50 more FPS than you would have been able to otherwise. In exchange, you gunk up your barrel faster and switching back to uncoated bullets is usually a PITA. Cleaning is also complicated. Some barrels also hate molly (Rock Creek, Walther Lothar, and Obermeyer for example have disclaimers saying molly will ruin em and void any guarantees and warranties), and many builders will tell you if you shoot molly you're stuck with molly.
 

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It's mostly the guys in competition that use moly. They are restricted by the case or barrel length (weight) and are trying to get that extra 50-100fps. If you aren't in competition there is no reason to use moly as it won't increase accuracy. I haven't used moly bullets but I have heard that it is easier to clean the barrel after using them. If you are breaking in a barrel I definitely wouldn't recommend moly. If not I don't think it would hurt to try it and see.
 

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I haven't used moly bullets but I have heard that it is easier to clean the barrel after using them. If you are breaking in a barrel I definitely wouldn't recommend moly. If not I don't think it would hurt to try it and see.
It's easier to clean carbon fouling. Cleaning the moly out is the fun part.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Well thank you for your advice. I have just gotten into trying to shoot accuratley and am using a savage 300wsm and 185 gr berger moly vlds. if i go to non moly vlds will it screw up my barrel? or if once i have shot moly coated bullets am i stuck having to shoot them, i have probably shot only 50 out of the barrel maybe 60 but no more than that, and about 400 round total through the barrel. i started using the moly bullets about 150 rounds ago. i have been trading off (trying to work up the right load) between the berger and 185 gr lapua scenar, non moly. have i made a big mistake? but i do want to stick with bergers, should i trade off to non moly bullets? thanks again for your help!
 

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Chances are accuracy will never be what it optimally can if you switch back to non coated. However, maybe your barrel will be cooperative and everything will go well. Try J-B Bore Compound; it lists being able to clean Molly and some builders vouch for it. Maybe also try Montana Xtreme 50 BMG afterwards; I use it to eliminate heavy fouling (>1000rnds 5.56, and for when I need to clean my precision rifles due to environmental conditions) and it makes bores spotless after a simple routine of less than 5 wet patches and some scrubbing mixed in; maybe it works on Molly too but I haven't had a need to find out. Wear a respirator, gloves, and safety glasses though.

Some barrels are thrown simply by molly itself, if you can shoot accurately now thats not a problem in your case; and if you're happy with your molly coated bullets there isn't a major concern. They work fine as long as they stay with their own kind, its going back to copper where accuracy goes fail. If you can swap off coated/non coated and still keep maximum mechanical accuracy your gun loves you.

So what'cha shooting with your 300wsm? IIRC you mentioned you were getting into tactical shooting?
 

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go to benchrest.com and find out why you should not use moly'd bullets. other than cleaning problems it can be down right dangerous, if your not on the top of you game when it comes to reloading with them. the main issue i see with moly is that it plates a pressure ring in the chamber and brass that will have to be mechanically removed. if your into that kind of stuff go for it. the average guy won't have any idea whats wrong when his favorite hand load starts shooting like crap. he'll figure that the barrel is shot out, or some such something. if your going to be shooting moly bullets its time to invest in a bore scope so you can keep track of chamber conditions say every 50 rounds or so. with heat and pressure the moly will and i do mean will mechanically bond or plat to the front of your chamber and it will require a man with a chamber reamer to get it out. thus the reason moly is out, not being used in any competition shooting anymore.
 

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Thanks for the additional information NH!

I didn't know that was one of the problems, but it makes sense.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Darkwulf i hope i am not being to thickheaded about all of this!! being as what i know (not a whole lot) has been self learned or from a friend over the phone over the last 6 months. if the gun will shoot great with moly, should i just use moly bullets then? or would it be hard on it if i switched and tried the 185s non moly? i would tell you how it shot the moly today @ 300yds but nonone will believe me and i dont have the means to put it on ac computer. far as what i am shooting right now is just trying to build up the load my gun likes, and i thought i had found it, until what all of u haave told me aoubt moly.

i guess you could say i am getting into tactical shooting, its just a stock savage 12 rifle. i would like to go and compete (shooting) but i dont feel comfortable trying. but mostly its just something for fun and to try and be good at, and in the back of my mind its in case one day i do have to protect myself, or family from along way out i will know how far to do it and what i can do. thank you for all of your help
 

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UBet,

Considering, what NH posted, I'd say Molly shouldn't be used at all. If you're going to be doing tactical shooting or action three gun derivatives, you can't afford to have to check chamber conditions every 500 rounds let alone 50. It shouldn't be hard on the gun to just shoot the non coateds but the accuracy is typically epic fail until the molly is completely gone.

Re: Tactical Shooting, You can do fine with a Savage 12. PM on the way shortly with some resources you might find helpful.
 

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Here's what someone over at benchrest said about cleaning the moly out of the barrel. I hadn't heard anything about what Neolithic posted on moly coated bullets. I haven't used anything other than naked so my opinion on moly is worth exactly what you paid for it.

2005 600-Yard IBS Shooter of the Year had to say about moly removal:
"I use moly and clean every two matches. I don't brush much, and if I do, I normally use nylon brushes."

Since I shoot moly, my cleaning procedure is different than you'd use with naked bullets. I went to moly so I wouldn't have to clean during matches. Now I'll clean every two matches--about every 80 rounds. Here's the procedure: I put a patch of Kroil through the barrel, then wet another patch with Kroil, stroke it pretty good, then I dry patch it. Next I run a couple Montana X-Treme 50 BMG wet patches and I let that set for 5-10 minutes, then dry-patch the 50 BMG out. Then I put a little JB on a dry patch on a jag, and short-stroke about 6-8 inches of the throat area for about a dozen strokes. After that I push another Kroil-wetted patch through again, and then wet/dry patch to remove the JB residue. The last step is to run a patch with Kroil.

This complicated process gets the barrel clean but I've found it may take a dozen or more shots to get the moly back in again so the gun shoots optimally. If somebody has a better/faster way to clean for moly bullets, that doesn't require so many fouling shots, I'm all ears. I generally don't use brushes, but when I do, I'll use nylon brushes (except in rare situations where I really need to attack carbon in the throat). Bill Shehane was the one who suggested I use the nylon. With a nylon brush I will send the brush all the way out the muzzle and draw it back in again. With a fairly loose-fitting nylon brush I can short-stroke the throat area (you can feel it if it's getting rough), but generally that's not necessary, and, as explained above, I can accomplish my cleaning with patches.

Taken from 6mmBR.com. Hope this helps. Art
 

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ok guys a quick guide to moly or molybdenum disulfide 101:

molybdenum disulfide will be further referred to as moly.

moly coating bullets was originally use to coat bullets in the hope that increasing the lubricity of the projectile would lead to less deformation in the barrel and increase velocity while reducing chamber pressure. this idea was from a match shooters perspective sounded like a good idea. less jacket damage would lead to bullets that fly truer to the point of aim with more constancy. it was also suppoed to increase your barrel life, a value point for a match shooter. in theory this was the new age way to go.

in actuality moly did not improve bullet flight at all. it will keep the chamber pressures lower allowing the bullet to be loaded to hight velocities for a given load.

ok now what are you going to get for your money: the bad news part.

1. when moly coated bullets are used anywhere between 25 and 50 rounds will be required to plate the barrel properly with moly. you can speed up the process by pre-coating the barrel with a dry moly prep. after the barrel is properly plated it should shoot as accurately as it did with non-coated bullets.

2. when each round is fired in your chamber moly will be plated to the chamber in front of the now empty case. it will also be plated to the inside of your case neck, at the point just above shoulder junction.

3. after this plating starts it will continue as long as you are shooting bullets with moly on them. when i mention plating i mean hard plating above 40 rockwell.

4. this plating will continue until it forms an area called a donut in both the case and the chamber.

5. no amount of scrubbing and cleaning will remove it. it will be mechanically bonded to you barrel and brass.

6. when the donut gets thick enough it will keep the bullets from seating completely in you cases at the diminutions that your loading die has set for your brass. when you push the base of the bullet past the donut the case will swell at this point making the round hard to chamber, or imposable to chamber.

7. when the donut in the chamber gets big enough it will literally swage your bullets down to a point smaller than bore diameter. at this point you will be lucky to hit a target at 25 yards. you will also notice the chamber pressures doing all kinds crazy stuff. one round will show no pressure signs the next will blow the head off of the case.

8. worst case is that it will cause your rifle to go kaaboom. this could damage more than just the gun, you and several people standing within 50 yards could be dead at this time.

now for the really bad part. the only way to get the crap out of your chamber, is have a gunsmith run a chamber reamer into the chamber by hand and remove the rock hard moly platting thats in there. even after that you will be getting moly out of your barrel most likely for the life of the barrel, every time you clean it some will come out.

now the good news. stop using moly in your rifle now. do not fire one more bullet. go back to naked bullets they will shoot as well as any moly whiz bang new coated bullet you can find. if you have less than 300 rounds of moly coated bullets through the barrel just quit with the moly, you should be fine. if its more than 300 take it to a smith and have the chamber scoped and cleaned if necessary.

P.S.: don't use them dang moly coated bullets again. the gains that moly will give can't be greater than the weigh the problems caused by using moly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
OK! i have it! throw away the moly bullets! thank you guys so much, i have only 50 or so through my barrel. the one more question i have, will a naked 185 gr berger like the same powder as the moly berger? looking for optimal accuracy i mean. or am i going to have to rework my loads? if i have to i ahve to, but i hope that i dont. i am currently using 65.5 viht n560 with the moly.

Darkwolf, for some reason i cant get personal messages, i dont know why.

thank you for all of your help!!!!
 

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I know of one or two custom Smiths' that Moly their barrels, but they also work it in and hand-lap it with a lead lapping jag for HOURS (thousands of strokes), and dont reccomend you use Moly bullets. I bought one of those "MS Moly" kits years ago, luckily i found out about this before i used it on any bullets, now the only thing i use the Moly Spray for is my CAS Shotgun bbls, since the coating helps keep the buildup of plastic Wad slag from my BP loads from sticking.
 

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We use Moly regularly on one dedicated rifle in the armoury. This is the explanation by my brother.
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The rifle has a custom, internally re-machined Armalite AR10 receiver/magazine well cut to accept a slightly longer AR10 magazine. All internal receiver parts are coated with a moly derivative. The chamber and throat are cut to accept one projectile profile only. The Sierra 175 MK, and no other. Because of these cuts the TTL, seat depth and OAL are specific and critical, thus the need and reason for a custom machined Mag-well.
Walther 17-4 S/S barrel, internally tapered .006 electro-polished bore and a 1-10 ROT.
SWS Foregrip and a prototype trigger group from the builder that later evolved into the Chip McCormick trigger.

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The guys clean this rifle once every 300 rounds and they simply plug the muzzle end, elevate the buttstock an inch and fill the bore with Wipe Out foam. They let it stand for one hour and use the bore and chamber patches. Every trace of Moly and carbon is gone. After every process they use a Hawkeye Borescope to prove the removal before they use a new batch of Moly Paste swabbed through the bore until it gets difficult to move the rod back and forth.

They put the rifle in the rack till the next session. They do all of this because the builder has been doing the same thing with all of the rifles he's built since 1999.
He's with R&D for EDM, and he's the one who designed the Windrunner series of rifles in .338, 408 and 50 caliber for them. He and my Dad are friends and he gave us the Moly impact process used by Sierra and by him.

This is a photo he sent Dad when the rifle arrived here. He's at the Marine High Angle Range in Hawthorne Nevada shooting one of his Windrunners at one mile. His doping computer is on the ground at his right side.




So, do we do Moly? :laugh: Yes!... but on one rifle. Every other rifle in the armoury had had it's bore hBN permeated and every bullet here that goes downrange is hBN impact coated. The purpose of both processes is bore longevity, and if you like I can get those figures on Moly for the three current load data test rifles belonging to the builder. We have the hBN figures here.

1911sr
 

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In short:

Molly is a gimmick. In theory it lubricates the bullet so that higher velocities are attainable at less pressure; in practice the gains are very small and the side-effects terrible. If seated optimally in your barrel, usually far past regular cartridge OAL, the slightly reduced friction may enable you to safely work up 50 more FPS than you would have been able to otherwise. In exchange, you gunk up your barrel faster and switching back to uncoated bullets is usually a PITA. Cleaning is also complicated. Some barrels also hate molly (Rock Creek, Walther Lothar, and Obermeyer for example have disclaimers saying molly will ruin em and void any guarantees and warranties), and many builders will tell you if you shoot molly you're stuck with molly.
I agree, I tried it once, that was enough.
 

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So, do we do Moly? :laugh: Yes!... but on one rifle. Every other rifle in the armoury had had it's bore hBN permeated and every bullet here that goes downrange is hBN impact coated. The purpose of both processes is bore longevity, and if you like I can get those figures on Moly for the three current load data test rifles belonging to the builder. We have the hBN figures here.
I'm very curious as to the hBN figures and the process you used on the bores.

As for the comments on the rifle, I honestly think you've (as well as many others) been had but if you're a satisfied customer then thats what ultimately counts. Your brother and I briefly had a chat on here about it but he abruptly left and I couldn't help but feel as if the discourse somehow irritated him, which was not my intent.
 

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to ....or not

Good thread guys-Really. Used to use fail safes in shorty barrelled .308- no problems noted, but I'm anal about cleaning the chambers/bores.I was loading them "warm" and running 3031/mag primers(unusual but this rifle loves it 5 rnds will go .4"@ 2,750's WHEN I'm "on", no flattened primers etc), loading hunting .308 165/180's to match 147 grn 7.62 velocities and keep pressures down.Running SM 168 HPBT's same load showed a velocity loss(30-50 fps) and no pressure signs unless really hot days...so backed off a grain and stuck with "reguar" vs moly.

Reasons were 2 fold- the referenced donut in neck throat area is "ass" to clean, I was worried that build up would start the pressures to climbing due to extra impingement in neck throat area if I didn't remove 100% of it...AND ALL THAT MESS when coating/reloading the SM's.Uniformity of coating was also a question ,as was neck neck tension issues, as the occaissional pressure signs and number of flyers (odd velocity variations -not "called flyers" which I have enough trouble with!!)tended to increase with batches I had coated.

Conclusion:Not worth the trouble and extra issues for sure with bullet coating.
I can offer no opinion as to barrel coating etc -though the chamber issues might be avoided.
 

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You may be right on the dubious benefits of Molly, however I do have a .338 load using barnes X bullets with molly that is sub MOA, something I have not been able to duplicate with non-molly bullets to date. (Of course I haven't invested the time to do so. :nuts: )

I'm very curious as to the hBN figures and the process you used on the bores.

As for the comments on the rifle, I honestly think you've (as well as many others) been had but if you're a satisfied customer then thats what ultimately counts. Your brother and I briefly had a chat on here about it but he abruptly left and I couldn't help but feel as if the discourse somehow irritated him, which was not my intent.
 
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