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Hi Darkwolf. It had nothing to do wtih you at all. Lat withdrew from about 5 forums all at once when all three businesses got so intense he knew he wouldn't be able to continue with Q&A's. He simply deleted everything to avoid confusion and not have to answer anything.
He only posts on his own forum now. Swiss Products, the Graphics Studio and the Recording Studio take more time than he really has.

I have no ideas or answers about you guys and your Moly problems. What Dad and Lat do with that rifle works to the point of being stupidly accuate and the ultimate proof of Moly doing it's job is in the Hawkeye Borescope. All the talking and conjecture ends with that. Every rifle in this armoury is borescoped after the log shows another 100 rounds. They all have their own logbooks and nothing is shot that isn't logged in. My Dad's done it that way for at least the past 40 years.

I'll go collect the hBN info that Lat has archived and come back in a while to post it. Every one of my firearms are hBN treated and only fire hBN impact coated projectiles.
 

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I think this may be the key to why some of us to not like moly coating.

There have been several different processes and formulaes for the stufff.

In the past the one I tried along with some friends was the one from Midway-USA IIRC.

hBN sounds less messy also anyone know what the Blue coating is on some factory bullets?
 

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1911sr,

I'm glad there wasn't an issue there. He seems like a nice guy. He's into recording too? Nice.

Aside from the potential dangers of moly, theres also the practical concern that it can unpredictably (unless one wants to play deranged engineer every single time they pull the trigger, which however fun just isn't practical) alter the average consistency of a barrel/loads pressure wave related expansion. Many people call this "harmonics" in general but here the principle concern is somewhat simpler, excellent loads are first fully engaged with the rifling without being in an expanded zone, and leave the barrel from a non-expanded zone. When a barrel's twist rate is extremely exact, this is a major factor in real .1-.2MOA mechanical accuracy vs. half-MOA.

With the rifle in question, it's not just the moly, it's the barrel... though it is actually possible the moly might be extending its lifespan. A problem with 17-4 in the context of a rifle barrel is that its chemistry is not conductive to most solvents and it will experience minor galling with high-copper jackets. There is also some suggestion that certain grades of 17-4 are somewhat hydrophilic in certain contexts. One can make amazing barrels out of 17-4 (and those Walther Lothars are nice) but they will lose their accuracy suddenly and unpredictably, literally going from silly stupid tight to 2-3 MOA+ over a few rounds. There are so many variables that go into it, however, that the barrel can have a lifespan ranging from mere hundreds to tens of thousands of rounds. To me, the chaotic nature of the situation makes it somewhat gimmicky.

Also, 3/4 MOA and better SR-25s are commonly available and they don't require magic loads to perform. The N6 uppers will easily do half MOA. I don't understand why there's a need for restrictive gunsmith-fu here. More temperature stable loads are also available than the IMR one suggested, and there is extremely solid data for them in regards to 7.62 AR's, courtesy of the government.

Again, I don't want to diss your weapon, and I hope that you and your brother enjoy it for a long time. As I told Lat in the older post, I've worked with barrels; I'm just stating my observations. Thanks for volunteering to get the hBN info!

Gnslngr,

3031 and magnum primers go together like peanut butter and jelly. Great things are possible with that combo within the temperature range it was loaded for.
 

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Hi Darkwolf. Please don't ask me about this rifle cuz I don't shoot it. I shoot a 1911sr almost exclusively, but this is from my Dad to you.

"With 1,260 of his rifles supplied to overseas Security Contract comapnies, the US Marine Corps, the FBI and other entities since 1999, and now designing for EDM, its unlikely that Mr. Wilson is concerned with the doubts of your forum friend. 17-4 barrels that are electro-polished don't typically gall. It that was a problem Black Star wouldn't be in business."

Wolfy do NOT holler at me! :laugh: And don't give me any messages. He's not interested in a discussion. He's not on the net anymore since he retired from his Swiss Rifles website. All I did was ask a question and I got an answer... so be nice! :D

These are a couple of photos of his earlier types and I copied this from my Brother's forum..

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" This is An AR10 in 300WSM. It belongs to a Federal agent who after wringing it out at Quantico in Feb., '08 by two of the FBI Eval team, declared it, "the most accurate shoulder fired weapon system we ever tested". This after three shooters attained all shot under 2 1/2" five round groups at 840 yards. Many have tried to build the AR10 platform in this caliber. None have a done so reliably. I believe I have the only design that is functioning reliably to this date. This has a Lilja three groove barrel."

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16" 'Grinder" model. Light weight, quick cycling unit designed for friends who are contractors that wanted 'something that gets inside of vehicles'. Will not function reliably with heavy bullets. Handles only those in the 150 grain range. It turned out, as all successful units are, quite extraordinary in the accuracy department (1/2 moa at 400 yards with a batch of ammo from Lake City with '96 headstamp).

Anyway, just some examples of things I have made in the past few years.

Enjoy.

Regards, Stewart

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I'm just waiting for my Brother to give me the original patent information on the hBN process and then I'll have a huge bunch of info for you.
Now, be nice, Wolfy! :D I'll be back in a while.

1911sr
 

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Wolfy, this is our family owned Recording Studio. Latigo and I grew up in here and Lat's not only a great engineer, he's an incredible rock guitarist and a very good Jazz guitarist. I play Bass Guitar. :D

1911sr
 

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In the meantime, I found this one from Mr. Wilson in an email to my Dad. These are the first prototypes that became the new EDM .308 line for 2011. I think there's like a 20 week wait right now, but they're on their website.

This is his production machine shop.



Forgot to add its called the VR10

http://www.edmarms.com/main.htm

1911sr :)
 

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Now I have to clean the drool from my keyboard - no, not my normal drooling, but the kind when lusting after firearms...

thanks for sharing this with us, good stuff!


In the meantime, I found this one from Mr. Wilson in an email to my Dad. These are the first prototypes that became the new EDM .308 line for 2011. I think there's like a 20 week wait right now, but they're on their website.

This is his production machine shop.



Forgot to add its called the VR10

http://www.edmarms.com/main.htm

1911sr :)
 

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Ok, so I'm going to give the hBN information it's own thread. I'm composing it all on Wordpad first and I'll insert the photos on the board. Its going to take me a while so please be patient. I think you'll find its worth it, no? :D

1911sr
 

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1911sr,

I'm not hollering! No abrasive negativity intended here, I promise. :) No need to pass messages back and forth or any of that; I'm just replying to whats here from my experience in the area, more or less just because it's here (such is the nature of internet forums).

I never thought Mr. Wilson would be in any way interested in my "doubts" (which are things that I've both empirically analyzed and computer simulated as part of a project, and experienced with two commercial barrels over the course of recreational shooting...), nor does the sales figure really mean anything to me. Bushmaster has sold tens of thousands of rifles to "Security Contract companies" and that doesn't make their AR any better than it realistically is. Many people make 17-4 barrels and all-in-all they serve well. Electro-polishing doesn't mean much in this instance because unlike traditional galling it's based on chemical affinity and the rifling geometry is what gets attacked most tangibly due to the mechanically exacerbated conditions, with locations where the homogeneous mixture isn't on par with being ideal likely being the shaky foundation for whatever minute spec of metal the wear affects. 17-4 addresses the gas and powder wear, and even resists mechanical bullet wear... copper is just kind of throwing a low probability wildcard into the mix (and seemingly greaterso the faster the projectile is thrown but I never went far into that; there's assuredly conditional parameters somewhere).

Irregardless,

Nice studio and great pics! Sound engineering can be so rewarding.

Thanks for working on getting that hBN info.
 

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Thanks! It is a nice studio and we get a great sound. We mostly lease it to producers and engineers who have projects, but Lat watches what they're doing. If an engineer starts throwing toggles and twisting knobs to see what they do, then Lat calls it all off. The money isn't the main thing for that studio and the engineer has to know what he's doing before he touches that console.
Anway thanks... And quit saying all that gobbledygook! I don't understand a thing you're saying. :laugh: Sounds like computer geek stuff, no? :D

I'm working on putting together the hBN thread and I'm thinking that you're going to read the entire patent, put it through your computer and then tell the patent guy a bunch of stuff that nobody here is going to understand and he's gonna end up wanting to smack you good, no? :D

And Mr. Wilson isn't Bushmaster. All of his return customers are in the professional world using his rifles on a daily, life dependant basis. I'm sure glad they return! :laugh:

1911sr
 

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Thanks! It is a nice studio and we get a great sound. We mostly lease it to producers and engineers who have projects, but Lat watches what they're doing. If an engineer starts throwing toggles and twisting knobs to see what they do, then Lat calls it all off. The money isn't the main thing for that studio and the engineer has to know what he's doing before he touches that console.
Are there any finished works you can reference me to? It sounds like a heartfelt outfit.

I'm working on putting together the hBN thread and I'm thinking that you're going to read the entire patent, put it through your computer and then tell the patent guy a bunch of stuff that nobody here is going to understand and he's gonna end up wanting to smack you good, no? :D
I'll certainly read through it carefully, though I doubt I'll have anything to say in regards to it. I know very little about hBN. :nyah: I looked into it briefly but invested more into a certain material with superior properties for the job (which the pinnacle of present technology isn't capable of rifling anywhere near economically enough for commercial production as it destroys the best options for tooling in awkward manners and at a voracious rate). If I recall, LWRC uses hBN treated bores exclusively, for whatever thats worth.
 

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Wolfy here's one you can listen to, and it has a cool story too! :D

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Dad has never been inclined to discuss Randy Weaver's interaction with the St.Marie Family, and I'm guessing I was maybe 16 or 17 when all of this happened. I do remember doing the piece in .the studio and dating Rachel.

I'm assuming that you all remember Randy Weaver, Ruby Ridge and the death of his wife and 14 year child. They never talk about the baby that was in her mother's arms when she was shot, but her name is Elisheba, and she's a beautiful little girl in the custody of her older sister, Sarah. Dad still talks to Sarah once in a while. She's a very cool Lady

This is a copy of a letter response he sent to some big deal writer who just wouldn't go away.

Dad is usually not this short and harsh with anyone, but I think the entire affair left him a bit angry with all concerned, particularly when it seemed to have no satisfactory end for Weaver's Daughters.

If there is a way to post the original, never released song I'll do it.

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This short narrative concerns the St.Marie Family's interlude with one Randy Weaver, the supposed folk hero of the Ruby Ridge incident.

I'll not discuss nor respond to anything as concerns the incident itself. My personal feelings are that he was entrapped with the shotgun idiocy in that the illegality of the weapon could be measured in no more than the width of the hacksaw blade he used to shorten it.

Horiuchi was and is a murderer. The BATF were and are thugs. Weaver's idiotic intentional failure to appear at a couple of court hearings did not remotely justify the actions of the BATF and the subsequent events, and though he bore a portion of the blame himself, the ATF thugs bear the brunt of it. Any one of these Government paid anti-Constitutional ATF hacks could have arrested him on any one of his frequent trips into town. They didn't. They opted to create the siege of the family home and the carnage that ended with the blatant, intentional murder of his wife and son. A 14 year old running away from the shooters and gunned down from behind by multiple fusillades in the back? Congratulations to the brave men of the ATF. Enough of that.

Sometime in the spring of 1996 I received a phone call in Lost Prairie. It was Randy Weaver asking if I knew who he was. "of course", I responded, and the following ensued.

He called because he'd heard of our Family owned recording studio and he was living in Lost Prairie not far from our home. He had recently moved into a ranch house just down the road from us. With him were his three daughters, Sarah, Rachel and the little known or discussed, Elisheba, the baby.

He was interested in having a ballad written, a ballad we eventually named "Far From Ruby Ridge". I agreed to persue the topic and began a search for any songwriters interested in such a venture. Long story short, after adverstising our intent in a number of industry journals for musicians, we received dozens of tapes and lyric submittals in the mail. Virtually all of them witten in a blood & gore, anti-goverment killers vein, completely unsuitable for any sort of a memorial type ballad and most all of them written in the dreaded 3/4 time. We were discouraged. After weeks of enquiries and responses we were no further ahead than on day one, and I was about to tell Weaver exactly that, then...........

One morning at the Graphics Studio, an elderly lady walked in and asked if we were the ones who knew Randy Weaver. She didn't have a song, but she had written a poem. A poem that was exceedingly well written with the abilty to rip, not tug, at your heartstrings. A true lump-in-the-throat poem. She asked if we would give it to Mr. Weaver. She had followed the story since day one and had developed a certain empathy for the plight of Weaver's wife and son. I agreed to pass the poem on to Weaver and she left, but.......

My son Latigo took the poem, read it and stated the not so obvious to me..... "This is our song." He was right! Perfect, and it metered out into 4/4 time! We had it. Now all we needed was a music composition, and of course I had the Latigo Band right here at home so......

Latigo wrote the music compostition, performed both rythm and lead guitar overdubs, Rosemary did the bass tracks and her ex-boyfriend did both the lead and harmony vocals. Within a week we had it. It couldn't have been written or performed any better.

The finished piece was never released. I have the final master. Weaver monetarily scammed us along with a number of other businesses in Kalispell and he shuffled off down the road, broke and self consumed. My son Latigo dated his daughter Rachel for a while and Sarah married within another couple of years. Elisheba stayed with Weaver until Sarah finally took her from him. I'll not explain why, but being with her father at that point in time was the worst possible place for Elisheba. Sarah recognized this and took her.

Many think that Weaver was well off. Not so. Only the three girls received the million apiece awarded by the court, not Weaver himself. He didn't get a dime. There was a lot of deception and subterfuge involved, but I'll not discuss it. For us it was enough to know that where we and a few local businesses were concerned, Weaver was a scammer and a liar. We ended up not believeing a word he ever told us, and sitting in our control room numerous times, he told us a lot, none of which I will divulge to you. I care not a whit for Weaver himself, but I do value the privacy of his Daughters.

I've seen him at gunshows every once in a while, peddling his book. After our experiences with him I never bothered to buy or read it. His word meant nothing to us and I had no reason to believe anything he ever said or wrote. Rachel and Latigo did not date again and she lived in town for some time. We've lost track of her but I saw Sarah a few times and spoke with her. She still lives here in town and is a great and perceptive young woman for whom I have a lot of respect.

I will not discuss or divulge anything I know about Weaver or his family beyond that in this narrative, so don't bother asking. This is intended as background on how the "Far From Ruby Ridge" ballad came to be and nothing more. Your curiosity doesn't interest me and I'm assuming that I'll not hear from you again on this matter.

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If this works, this is the original ballad "Far From Ruby Ridge"




http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=7383462&q=hi&newref=1

Makin' Tracks Sound Studio, St.Marie family owned

The control room.

The Drum isolation room











 

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Gunner if you want to move this someplace else please do. I just realized I posted it in the reloading forum.

1911sr
 

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And I forgot to answer that "gimmik" part about Moly.
First let me ask, Wolfy, do you know who David Tubb is?
 

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Weaver rents a table now and then at the local gun shows here.

I walked right past him a few times in the aisles.

I've never spoken a word to him or shook his hand.

To put this in terms anyone can understand, there's some bad juju around that guy.

Not sure if it's his attitude or the eye's of every undecover fed at the show on him, or the both of us for that matter.
 

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No gimmick, Wolfy. For years David Tubb used only moly coated projectiles in his firearms and a very large number of both national and international matches where he won trophys.

http://www.davidtubb.com/

He sold his Moly ICP's (Impact Coated Projectiles) to the public until he switched to hBN IPC's. Now he does the same thing. Moly is for one thing only, and that's barrel life. Its easily cleaned out of a rifle with Wipe-Out.

Moly is used thoughout the machinery industry in the grease form for fine lubrication of temperature and friction critical gears. We use it in it's paste form to precoat the Wilson AR10 barrel. After 18 months and 3,120 round downrange the Hawkeye Borescope shows no change in the rifle's lands/grooves. None.
 

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Yes I know who David Tubb is. I also perceive your comments as snide, but maybe I'm just reading wrong.

In regards to moly, IMO the gains aren't worth it plus there's extra maintenance on top. 50-100 FPS and a slight, but variable, possible increase in barrel life in exchange for viable chamber-area concerns and a void in many barrelmaker's warranties just doesn't do it for me. What Tubb feels give's him the power to win matches is entirely for him to decide. The comparison is like equating gatorade as essential to a sports victory because an athlete drinks it without even considering product substitutes.

Again, please note what I've said in regards to the interesting pairing of the 17-4 barrel and moly. Also note that I've previously contracted testing of barrel materials, including 17-4, to some truly excellent engineers in pursuit of a personal project which I hoped to bring to market. Hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent in testing and directly working with various materials. I can tell you with absolute certainty that 17-4 and copper jackets are not friends, however the extent to which they are not friends is variable and hard for an end user to predict; in any event the resultant barrels did not perform to the desired envelope. It is possible that the moly is protecting your bore. Either way I'm glad your specific gun is working.

Whether you are interested/care/give a crap or not is entirely for you to determine, and your mileage may vary.
 

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Shame on you Wolfy! I'd never intentionally make snide comments to you.
My point is that two of the most knowledgeable ICP shooters around, Mr. Tubb and Stewart Wilson both have very long and proven track records with their Moly projectiles. Their knowledge and opinions come from a long period practical application, and nothing trumps that.
Mr Wilson had supplied hundreds of thousands of those ICPs to both Contract companies and the military users of his contract rifles since 1999.

Maintenance on those rifles is very low, and giving a rifle a double barrel life and (in the case of hBN) a triple barrel life is important to users. For us in the Swiss rifles world it's far more important because some of those barrels can't be replaced at all except as a new manufacture, and nobody in the world is doing that.

If you haven't the factual, practical experience with either of them then you're simply repeating what someone else has said. That's not a stong position from which to speak.

See! I didn't end that with a preposition! :laugh: It's ok. I know deep down you like me, no? :D
 
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