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Discussion Starter #1
Ok guys. I've collected this from both Dad and Latigo's emails, written communications and posted answers. Not all of it is in sequence because of how I collected it, but its all here.

Not one single round through any rifle in the armoury goes downrange without first being impact coated. One rifle with Moly and all of the others, handguns included with hBN.
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Your bore is going to make a difference right out of the gate. Both Moly and hBN have specific applications. Lab Grade Moly is typically 99.8% pure with a 1 to 3 micron size. hBN (far more preferrable in most bores) is typically negative 5 micron or smaller.

First, hBN. The patent shows it as being most effective on a standard steel bore, far less effective on a polished Stainless Steel bore and has no effect on a 17-4 S/S Electro Polished bore, this because the negative micron particles cannot ingrain themselves into the surface and create the required ceramic protective coating.

This is the Patent. There are a lot of "between the lines" analysis contained therein and I suggest you ask questions about any aspect you don't understand. The primary intent has nothing whatsoever to do with accuracy, and there would likely be no change in group size in your particular rifle, but there certainly can be. The objective is to double or even triple barrel life, and for us that is critical. Barrels for some of these Swiss rifles are virtually impossible to obtain other than with an inordinate amount of expenditure. This is the nature of the zfk55.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7197986/description.html

hBN is not typically susceptible to moisture and thus does not allow corrosion to affect the lands/grooves of the bore. This is a rather large advantage over Moly in certain scenarios.

The process is simple. If you've ever fired a copper jacketed projectile in your rifle, you must use a water based copper removal specific such as Foam Wipe Out. Whatever you use, make sure its water based and ammonia free. Once you've borescoped and found the bore to be completely copper free, if the bore is .30 caliber, roll a .270 (or whatever, but a bit smaller diameter than your bore) caliber clean swab in a mixture of 100% Denatured Alcohol and hBN. Use a small, sealable pill bottle, glass (preferrable) or plastic to mix and store the slurry. The ratio should replicate a slurry of the consistency of milk. Run it back and forth through the bore and let stand.
Within half an hour I fire an impact coated projectile through the bore and that's it. The bore is effectively ceramic coated.

Everyone has a methodology and most involve pill bottles in the tumbler suspended in media. I don't. I use 16oz plastic jars with screw on lids, and not inside the tumbler in in the media. I made a secondary lid for the tumbler/vibrator on a CNC. Its 1/2" thick Sintra with a 1/4" deep channel cut into the bottom to fit over the inside and outside edge of the tumbler. A 5/16" hole is drilled in the dead center to acommodate the shaft and wing-nut. All four jars are spaced evenly around the shaft on top of the lid. The tumbler is empty.

All four jars are filled to the 1/3rd mark with impact coated .177 steel bBBs. The BBs must be washed in Dawn or cleaned with a Sonic Vibrator and denatured alcohol. Add a nominal 1.5gr of hBN and vibrate for three hours.

Place 50 .30 caliber (or whatever, untouched by human hands) clean projectiles in each jar, add a nominal .5gr (this amount is arbitrary) of hBN and vibrate for three hours. The jars on top impact coat the projectiles easily 4 times harder and faster than in a pill bottle suspended inside the tumbler in media. Once the lids are screwed down tight, use a 1/2" wide strip of plastic tape around the area between the lid and the jar. Negative 5 micron hBN is so fine it can potentially find it's way through the threads.
Use a large slotted spoon to remove the impact coated projectiles from the jars and tumble then in a Terrycloth towel.

We begin by stripping the chambers, throats and bore with Wipe Out. Its an ammonia free, water based bore cleaner that removes literally 100% of everything. Carbon, copper, any kind of fouling including Moly. We leave the Foam Type Wipe Out in the bore and throat for about two hours then dry swab everything. We do a follow-up inspection for any copper residue with a Hawekeye Borescope. A complete, 100% copper free bore is essential.
I wash the bullets in very hot, soapy water with Dawn. I use a bowl with a plastic strainer that just fits in it. Once washed, I thorougly rinse with hot water, not cold. From that point I handle the projectiles as little as possible until they're in the impact jars and then only with disposable latex gloves. Assuming you've already treated the .177 steel BBs, you can put 50 .30 caliber or 100 smaller caliber bullets in each jar.

Mike, we've changed our methodology just a bit since you read the last email. We now place a thin layer of dense foam in the bottom of the Dillon. the jars are sealed where the top threads down onto the jar with friction plastic electrical tape to keep any hBN from leaking out. We place the jars on their sides and pack them in with chunks of foam. We place enough foam on top of them so that when the vibrator lid is screwed down they're trapped tightly. This keeps everything horizontal and the bullets stay on the horizontal position. Works much better and you won't need a specialty lid for your Dillon. The attatched pics are of one of our smaller vibrators with two of the older jars we original used. We now use the new jars in the larger Dillon, but they do show how the jars are packed and kept horizontal.

With hBN, heat is good but not entirely necessary. We use heat in the form of a Halogen body shop lamp. Placement of the lamp is critical for the well-being of your tumbler. Too close and you'll soften the plastic. Vibrate them for 3 hours. Remove them with a slotted spoon and tumble them in a Terry towel a few times. They'll come out perfect. This horizontal impact coating with steel BBs in a vibrator with no media makes them hit hard and fast, and that's the secret to perfect coating. Even small tipped bullets come out perfectly with no damage to the plastic tips at all.

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Pictures

This is the .177 steel BB preparation.





And bullets.



Original Vibrator setup, and they still use this one too. We do an awful lot of bullets here. Sometimes thney keep media in the tumbler so they can clean brass while impact coating.





Newest method.







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More pics to come.
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Bullets before Terry towel tumbling.



After



Borescoping with the original borescope. This one is a flexible one and was about 1/5th the image quality of the Hawkeye they bought, but the old one was only $300 and the Hawkeye was $1,000.00 but it was absolutely necessary for bore control and inspection.

1911sr
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Ok, so how do we prep our projectiles before and process at all? And this includes cases. Its a lot of work but it all proves itself on the targets.
This is from my Brother's archives.

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We only have one projectile for the AR 10s. The Sierra Matchking 175s.
We trim meplats, point and sort. Typically I seem to find only three weights with a semi-rare odd one. 174.9, 175 and 175.1. The odd one always seems to be 175.2. Spread allowance is 1/10th gr. Meplat trimming comes close to equalizing projectile weights, and pointing makes a real difference at 400 yards and out to 1,000.

The trimmer indexes on the projectile's ogive, not the base. Once the brass is sized and trimmed we sort it by weight as well allowing no more that a one tenth spread. Out of 100 we'll typically have 6 different weight categories. Surprisingly, both Lapua and LR are neck and neck for consistency for us.

Sizing and seating are done with Redding Precision Match dies only. No other.

After reloading we also sort loaded cartridges by overall weight allowing no more than a two tenths spread. All sorts of sorts, but results are consistent and I make the time to do it.
Our private range is a 500 yard maximum.
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Meplat Trimmer.



The bullet Pointer.



Wilson Case Trimmer, the only one we use.

 

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Discussion Starter #5
There's lots of blue in the armory on the reloading side.



Its a fun place to be in the winter especially.
 

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1911sr,

Thanks for posting!

Nice reloading setup. It seems that we think similarly in that regard. I don't have a bullet pointer, however, and use a mg scale for weights.

Have you done any comparative testing with the bullet pointer? I know you mentioned your private range is to 500, but have you perchance used .308s processed with it at 800+ yards? I looked up the bullet pointer you displayed and it looked like it produced notably better results than others I have seen.

Also, have you perchance hBN treated a barrel in poor condition? If so, how did it affect it?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Have you done any comparative testing with the bullet pointer? I know you mentioned your private range is to 500, but have you perchance used .308s processed with it at 800+ yards? I
Also, have you perchance hBN treated a barrel in poor condition? If so, how did it affect it?


Yes, but it wasn't me. It was Latigo and I have the log on the rifle. Its this one. A zfk55 Swiss Sniper Rifle.



This is it with the issue integral scope. The bipod is a Harris but you can see the issue bipod folded on the bench udner it.
Dad developed a Bipod Conversion Lug for owners of these rifles. There were only 4,000 ever made.



This is the conversion lug.



This is the zfk55 Sniper Replacement Scope Mount that Dad developed to allow any owner to use any scope in the world and not be stuck with the issue Kern 4 Power that is a one piece unit with the issue mount.





This is the scope the guys use on this zfk55. Its an IOR Valdada Fixed 10 power for 1,000 yard shooting.



Ok. So now you know about the rifle that does 1,000 yard shooting, and beyond 500 yards we take our rifles just down the valley to the Austin Monk Ranch where tehre is a 1,500 yard range.

I can't show you the logbook cuz I'm not allowed to post any of our logbooks, but I can tell you what happens.
The only projectiles we shoot from any Swiss rifle is the Berger VLD 175gr.

Trimming Meplats and Pointing for shooting anything under 350 yards won't make a difference you can actually measure. At 600 yards it becomes far more apparent and at 1,000 yards it makes a definite difference in groups, but we trim and point no matter what the distance.

I asked about older, worn barrels and the purpose of hBN is simply to permeate the lands/grooves creating a ceramic surface to preserve the life of the barrel when used with impact coated projectiles, but it won't enhance the shootability of a poor barrel.
The recommendation is for treatment on a barrel that has sharp lands and grooves and shoots well to begin with.

I hope this answers your questions. Gotta run. Time for my Daughter's dinner. :)
 

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Beautiful K-31, I have to admit your level of knowledge is very impressive. I would like to take tutorials from your family I think I could learn a lot. I am strictly a recreational shooter but always eager to learn
 

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Discussion Starter #9
CC, this is a zfk55.



This is a k31.



This is my full dress k31 with all St.Marie Swiss Products accessories on it.



I don't know about tutorials from Dad. He's a pretty harsh taskmaster when it comes to firearms. You wouldn't believe what my brother and I went through to get our carry permits. He's certified by the county to sumit CC candidates and teh Sheriff knows that if you've been though Dad's course, you're probably going to be as solid as they come.

Would you like to see one of the archives that deals with that? :eek2: :D
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
This is the short verison. :uhh::laugh:
Its an answer to an enquiry on a board a very long time ago.

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Its Your Responsibilty

Requirements for a CC Permit by Sheriff Departments, City Police and States vary widely and wildly. Wildly because in some venues there seems to be little connection between self defence and a field hunting course to obtain a CC.
In the field, never carry a rifle with a chambered round. Always keep the muzzle down. Never crawl through a fence with your rifle. Congratulations. You passed.

Responsibility for being fully qualified to obtain a permit and carry a sidearm rests solely with you, the applicant. You are responsible for the depth and pertinence of the course, after all, the choice of a teaching methodolgy is something upon which you must decide. Its not only your right, but its more importanly your duty to seek the proper teacher and course methodlogy to ensure your own safety both in real life and in the courts should that be your misfortune. Selecting the right course is the first and probably most important step you'll take in your quest for a CC Permit.

There are many approaches to teaching self defence employing the use of a firearm, be it pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle. There are most certainly more than one good approach, but the end result should always be the same. A knowlegeable, competent and aware CC candidate, well schooled in every aspect of firearm and personal responsibility. You should most certainly interview your prospective teacher as if he/she were a job applicant. Interviewing a self defence instructor is by far more important than interviewing a salesman, waitress or a structural engineer. Upon that interview and acceptance of an instructor will potentially hang the rest of your life.

I'd like to give you the basics of what a CC course should contain. There may be instructors who require more or less, but the end result should be the same.

My course of instruction begins with a two way interview. The candidate should be asking me any and all questions to determine my qualifications, approach and expected additude. I will be asking the candidate a number of key questions to determine that I am comfortable with his/her state of mental preparedness for a live firearms course. Some of the questions might be leading questions to determine the candidate's true purpose for wanting a CC. In my history I have most definitely turned down candidates for what I consider to be bad or cavalier additudes. Its my right to determine fitness as it is theirs to determine my qualifications. If I certify you, its my responsibilty to the Sheriff to give him truly qualified applicants.

Classes begin with required reading. I typically use the old Ayoob book, In the Gravest Extreme. Discussion of the book contents always follows, and when I determine the candidate has a firm grasp of potential negatives and the legal ramifications that can be potential life changing events, I move on to firearm introductions with a side trip of another required reading, Jordan's "No Second Place Winners"

A range that allows users to check out various sidearms is greatly preferrable. I never recommend a specific firearm other than to point out that a snubby revolver might be easier for a lady to carry in her purse. Proven revolvers have virtually a zero FTF, and by "proven" I mean a revolver and caliber that's been successfully in production for a long time. For anyone, never less than a .38 with a +P and up being preferrable.

If a candidate has no access to a pistol loaner range I discuss the reality of a suitable revolver or semi-auto for purchase. This may include a number of personal factors as to method of anticipated carry, comfort/size of the caliber and budget. Personal strength and recoil factor into the decision making equation. My own feeling is that a revolver is the correct sidearm for anyone who has no practical firearm experience. Semi-autos are an inherently more difficult tool to master for the complete novice. If an experienced shooter appears to have issues with semi-auto function during the course I require a switch to revolvers. All attention should be focused on the issue of learning and not on the function or periodic failure of the firearm to feed, extract or eject.

Practical field instruction begins with lessons in Point of Vision shooting. The candidate is taught how to make parafin loads for his/her sidearm. This allows them to practice at home in the garage or even in the house. we take a nominal 40 cases, drill out the primer pockets to 1/8", notch the rim with a file (to avoid mistaking the brass as reloadable with powder and projectiles), and size the brass. Parafin is then melted in a shallow pan to a depth of a nominal 1/4to 3/8" deep (depending on caliber) . The cases are then placed nose down in the parafin and allows to cool until hard. Once cool and hard ( a refrigerator helps) they are gently rocked side to side and removed. By this time the candidate has already secured a Lee or RCBS hand primer in the appropriate caliber. The cases are primed.

A piece of cardboard or softer material is set up with a black Magic Marker, life sized profile of a human. Using plywood is not recommended and will startle you with the impact of the parafin. Its far more than you imagine. No... the parafin won't goo up your rifling. After the session, collect the parafin on the floor and target and then useing a brass brush and a swab with alcohol leaves the lands/grooves/ clean and free of wax if there is any. The wax won't melt as it passes down the bore. Dwell time is very short and the primers cause no appreciable heat.

The next step is one that must be experienced to fully understand. The applicant is taught to hang the pistol at the side, raise to a natural height midway between stomach and chest, bring both hands together, focus on the chest area, squeeze and fire, fluidly in one motion. Many succeed quickly, but for most it takes practice. Lots of practice, thus the economy of wax loads. Raise, left hand over the right on the pistolgrip, center, squeeze and fire. Over and over until its second nature. If the projectile hits consistently too low, some applicants learn to simply "look higher" IE: at the shoulder level or even the neck level of the foe. If their point of vision impact is naturally low, they simply look higher. Understand that these wax projectiles will travel an easy 25 feet dead true, just as true as a lead projectile. Make no mistake. The impact of the wax projectile is enough to penetrate and kill as very short ranges.

Once a true point of vison excercise is natural and accomplished every time, the applicant begins to draw from the holster, purse or bag, whatever the normal carry vehicle would be. Sound odd? Nope. If she's going to be carrying in a purse, then the purse is from where she will draw. At this point a number of women may determine they want to have the option of carrying behind the right hip. In either case, practice now shifts to that mode.

The next step will be "reflex" shooting. Learning to use one hand and hit a body center every time. When a quick reflex to a danger is suddenly required, this excercise is paramount. This excercise is less accurate for some and very accurate for others, but both must be learned. Wax projectiles, weapon hanging at the side, raise and fire and then on to drawing from the carry mode. Speed has nothing whatsoever to do with the course. Speed for the candidate comes later and on their own. No speed drawing is ever allowed on our premises. We do recommend a few on-line videos for those who intend to learn proper speed draw methodology.

Now comes the live fire course. We always begin with a .22 pistol and the (by now) familiar two handed raise, center, squeeze and fire excercise followed by the reflex application. The final part of the live fire course is utilization of the candidate's own firearm in the same, very familiar sequence. Drawing from the carry vehicle is always done slowly and smoothly. No quick draw on premises.

By this time we've already covered (with the applicant) why the applicant should avail him/herself of every opportunity to avoid the confrontation. Walking, talking, running away (if practicable), being constantly aware of surroundings, keeping clear of unusual secluded areas and late night individuals in low light, little trafficked areas and doing anything within reason to avoid drawing their firearm.

The applicant is urged to never discuss the firearm, show the firearm, make carrying obvious or the fact that they are indeed carrying. Not friends, not family (if applicable), not fellow workers, not even your Priest, Pastor or Rabbi. Nobody.

Its very important that the applicant learn to assume the weight of the firearm as natural, something not noticed, not consciously aware of the weight or the fact that its even there. Its equally importatnt to not be suspicious of every stranger, every situation of daily life, every sudden noise, every quick movement around you. The firearm should simply be another part of your body, not a conscious part but one to be called upon in the gravest extreme.

A successful applicant will not be constantly watching and waiting, expecting the worst. Carrying in itself typically makes the carrier more relaxed, more secure feeling, more responsible and far less likely to react violently or overreact.
Regular range time is strongly encouraged.

There are far more aspects to my course than can easily be presented here considering the typist has the will of a youngster and the fingers of an OldGuy. Push, step back, brace and draw etc. Many little and bigger things are presented in the course of the live fire classes. Bear in mind that this is not a Practical Pistol course but a base for self defense shooting. Other instructors may broaden the base of their courses and expand into related shooting excercises and events.
Its only important to remember that the final judge of the prospective course is you, the applicant. The responsibility for everything that occurs after the issuing of your CC with your firearm is your responsibilty, and yours alone. There will be no instructor to stand by your side in a courtroom testifying as to the validity of the shoot. No instructor should ever present scenarios to a student. Its not remotely possible to present them all and the student's first confromtation would most likely be something never considered. Don't dwell on "what if"s. Ayoob's books present rational confrontation responses. I can only answer what I might do, not what the candidate should do.
Choose your teacher carefully and remember that if something doesn't sound reasonable and rational, it probably isnt.

Shoot straight, think carefully as quickly as you can and..........
....stay low.

zfk55/sr


(There was some sort of a question asked here and I think the guy wanted to know what gave Dad the right to decide who should carry.)


Of course you're right. It is a right to carry and self defense, however many county commissioners, city councils, PDs and Sheriff Departments do put stumbling blocks in the way.
I have an excellent working rapport with all of the above mentioned, and if a new licensee is involved in a bad (his) fault situation because of a found and obvious irrational mindset, the one who offered the certification is noted. When I turn down a candidate I always refer him/her to the NRA Field Instructor who can and will certify them simply for completeing their course. They're not bound to be certified by me. I consider that I offer the best I can give in preparedness and peace of mind.

If I certify a candidate, the Sheriff knows that candidate has been through as much as is practical for individual preparedness and responsibility.
I never judge who should and should not carry. That's not in my pervue, however its definitely my right to pass on an applicant if I feel there is a definite problem. I don't want to go to bed thinking about a bad shoot involving an applicant I knowingly and erroneously passed simply because of his/her right to carry.
I can't be right all or even most of the time, but I have to live with myself if I pass an applicant just because of that right.


zfk55/sr
 
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