Firearm Forums - Arms Locker banner

1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,484 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Last week I took the model 70 .30-06 to the range.I put a quick 20 rounds through it(& burned my thumb on the barrell:().Anyways,as my last string was all over the target I blamed the hot barrel(did I mention that I burned my thumb on it?:().
I eyeballed my rifles' barrel next to a Springfield M1A at the range.The barrel contour of the M1A didn't impress me as being that much more robust.Do rifles like the FAL/Garand/M1A lose their zero fairly quickly when fired alot?Or is the wee bit more barrel mass enough to keep all the bullets going into,more or less,the same hole?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,690 Posts
Most military rifles are iron sighted, so you are less likely to notice a shift in POI.

If you would like, I can post more about this at "GB's Place" later.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,484 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Actually I would.

BTW,I don't have a scope on any of my guns.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,117 Posts
Elmer Keith said years ago that the Garand "would not hold elevation" to long range as well as did the Spld, as the barrel got hot. I'd ask the question over at CSP forums, for whichever rifle you are interested-in. The AR series is a special case, because it's made for full auto, has an alloy receiver, burns a lot less powder than does the 308 and the way its barrel is tensioned in the upper is a bit different than the other auto rifles. I aint kidding, you can make the match M1A SMOKE if you put 20 fast rds thru it, like in 6-7 seconds. Mine wouldn't stop smoking for a full minute after such a magfull.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,781 Posts
Maybe thats why in 1948 a new rear sight was introduced! Duh!!! It took me 160 rds to get my first Garand stock smoking and I figure that it was all the linseed oil that was built up on the stock.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,268 Posts
andy said:
Elmer Keith said years ago that the Garand "would not hold elevation" to long range as well as did the Spld, as the barrel got hot. I'd ask the question over at CSP forums, for whichever rifle you are interested-in. The AR series is a special case, because it's made for full auto, has an alloy receiver, burns a lot less powder than does the 308 and the way its barrel is tensioned in the upper is a bit different than the other auto rifles. I aint kidding, you can make the match M1A SMOKE if you put 20 fast rds thru it, like in 6-7 seconds. Mine wouldn't stop smoking for a full minute after such a magfull.
Oh, so now you have an M1A. That's odd because you have been spouting off for months what a useless cartridge the .308 is. Now all of a sudden you have an M1A. What happened to the 10" Car without handguards, pistol grip, or stock? It was a miracle weapon just two day's ago.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,648 Posts
I think it's a clear indication of a lack of proper maintenance. His was probably full of cosmoline, or soaked in WD-40, to the point where it barely functioned.

I've showed this post to a couple of friends who are avid M1A shooters and they just laughed.

:devil:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,484 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
On the one hand it seems obvious to me that the reason my group opened up was probably 100% my fault.

I am still curious though how a different sight could/would make a difference?It seems to me that there would be unrelieved stresses on a barrel that could cause it to "warp"-hopefully slightly- when the metal starts to expand(gets hot)I realize that it would be highly unlikely to get a barrel hot enough to visibly bend(although I have both heard from a vet & read about a few times where an M-60 barrel could be seen to "droop" after firing several hundred rounds in succesion.The reason why the barrel in question wasn't swapped out was never explained.) but I suspect that,depending on the quality of the blank,even comparatively mild heat might cause a loss of zero with some barrels.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,117 Posts
the reason that the M60 barrels weren't swapped out is that the guys would rather either be 5 lbs lighter, or carry another 100 rd belt, rather than the spare barrel. In a lot of cases, they HAD no spare barrels, even back at base. For nam type stuff, the M249 makes a LOT more sense than the M60 ever did. The gunner has 200 rds on tap, and a lighter load, and the belt's inside of a drum, than the M60 guy with a 100 rd belt. The AG is carrying twice as many rds, too, and those rds interchange with the rds used by the riflemen.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,484 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
andy said:
The AR series is a special case, because it's made for full auto, has an alloy receiver, burns a lot less powder than does the 308 and the way its barrel is tensioned in the upper is a bit different than the other auto rifles.
So the alloy receiver & the plactic furniture both allow for faster heat dissipation as compared to a steel & tree wood rifle.That makes sense but I wonder just how much difference there would actually be?Hmmm.
Less powder = less total heat loss.That makes sense.One other thing I noticed is that the ratio of barrel bore vs outside diameter seems to favor the .223 dia round as well.ie.There seems(to my eyeball anyways-I didn't break out the gonculator & calipers)to be proportionally less surface area for the .308 rifle barrel to dissipate heat from.

I fear that I'm starting to bounce at the end of my knowledge tether.Can anyone expand on this.In English?!:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,117 Posts
Less powder u burn, less heat generated. The HBARS hold their zero and grouping ability really well. In fact, they do so better than "sporter grade" bolt actions do. Barrel can be bent a LOT and not be "visibly bent". By the time you can SEE it, (other than spinning it in a lathe or rolling it across a glass plate, it's a goner as far as any long range hitting ability is concerned. There's a couple of processes now done for benchrest barrels. One is Cyrogenic freezing of the barrel, to relieve stresses, and Black Star liquid-vibration honing of the machine- tool marks. The idea of the latter is to reduce the buildup of fouling, requiring less cleaning. If you clean a bore, the next shot is not going to hit where the shots hit from the fouled bore. The difference in friction changes the pressures, velocity and whether the vibrating barrel is "zigging" or zagging" when the bullet actually exits the muzzle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,268 Posts
andy said:
the reason that the M60 barrels weren't swapped out is that the guys would rather either be 5 lbs lighter, or carry another 100 rd belt, rather than the spare barrel. In a lot of cases, they HAD no spare barrels, even back at base. For nam type stuff, the M249 makes a LOT more sense than the M60 ever did. The gunner has 200 rds on tap, and a lighter load, and the belt's inside of a drum, than the M60 guy with a 100 rd belt. The AG is carrying twice as many rds, too, and those rds interchange with the rds used by the riflemen.
What would you know about "Nam type stuff" REMF? Spare barrels were routinely carried and swapped out depending on the situation. The real trick was not to "lay on the trigger". Keep your bursts short, (6 to 9 rounds) and switch barrels every three to four hundred rounds, if possible. If the barrel on an M-60 was burning out the bullets started "corkscrewing" through the air as the rifling went. You tell this by the tracer rounds. The drooping barrel is a good story; probably did happen. But I never saw it. The Assistant Gunner carry's the spare barrel, not the Gunner. Every member of the squad carry's 100 rounds of ammunition for the gun except for the pointman. John d. doesen't know his ass from third base about Infantry operations.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,781 Posts
Hey Terry, watch that "R" word, some of us have been on both the pointy and the dull end of the bayonet!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,268 Posts
Garand said:
Hey Terry, watch that "R" word, some of us have been on both the pointy and the dull end of the bayonet!
No offense intended at all, Garand. Any man's service is not to be degraded. Big mouth just get's my goat by issuing his "words of wisdom" about combat he has never seen. One of the finest men I have ever met served as a meat inspector in Cam Rahn Bay, SVN. He just did his job, making sure the meat we ate wouldn't poison us. Heroic? No, just did his job. A very, very good man. I was pretty much a REMF myself the last three months I was in the war. I'm going to stop speaking of that time because some Forum members think I'm "chest beating". One old Soldier to another. I know you were on the sharp end.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,890 Posts
Garand said:
Hey Terry, watch that "R" word, some of us have been on both the pointy and the dull end of the bayonet!
Just for the record Garand, I think most people know the difference between a support soldier and a REMF.

A moron who spent his military career sleeping on duty and practicing his Toe Gon Boom on strung up dogs is a REMF, among other things.
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
Top