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in response to the REAL/ORIGINAL 'question' posed/presentented :nyah:

i'd say,,,[5] ROUNDS,,,EVERY,,,[3] MONTHS! would suffice ones 'lust' for the need![on target,of course]

heel's afirin' lettle sessster! i'm thinkin' a SOLID PLANTIN' OF A SEMI-"KIETH" style big-bore projo[proficently] should be TRAININ'/ANSWER enuff! :poke:
 

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About two mags worth, maybe three just to be sure. If they don't hiccup then they're fine. First off, I don't like guns that get finnicky with ammo. To me a quality gun will work with any factory ammo that it is chambered for. If it wont do that then not only will I not carry it, I wont own it.
But I admit that I carry revolvers almost exclusively. I have never heard of one failing in a critical moment, and this is with 75 years of experience under many different conditions. That's good enough for me. The biggest danger in CCW situations is not a failure of the ammo or the mechanics, but a failure of the operator. Revo's pretty much eliminate that. So do a lot of semis today.
 

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good thoughts, krept.

Myself, TRB, and "the drills" are a constant, but mostly I want to fire enought rounds of my "carry ammo" (or ballistically identical) for any given weapon, to know that where I think I'm gonna hit is INDEED where I'm gonna hit. This may be variable in exact number, but its ALWAYS enough, thorough, and ongoing.

Ya do what ya train.
 

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As pointed out before cost is a subjective thing. Your asking this handgun to save your life if push comes to shove. What's your life worth?? This isn't one of those one a month purchases, you could end up carrying this firearm for maybe 10-15 years. Divide the cost of the ammo over that time period and it doesn't seem like the initial purchase was excessive. Personally I always find that it takes a minimum of 400 rds to discover the "qwirks" of any new firearm.
 

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I may be flamed for this, but I fired 250rds of 9mm in varying weights, and nose shapes until I found THAT ONE ROUND that shot POA. I carry a Daewoo DP-51C, with Augila IQ slugs. I wait until the first wendsday of the month, and then fire off the 21reds I carried all month, reload mags, clean/lube pistol, and return to holster. I practice double taps to center of mass, and a follow-on head shot 7 times per month, and have gotten fairly accurate and quick from the CCW rig I wear. I know this isan't a large amount of practice and I wish I could afford more but time, and money is always tight in my reality.
 

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Half elf said:
I carry a Daewoo DP-51C,
Is that the "tri-action" one? I remember a Daewoo pistol that you could touch the trigger and the hammer would fly back to single action. Looked like a nifty little pistol. I've always kicked myself in the ass for not buying it (was less than 300 bucks, ten years ago). At the time though, I'd never heard of Daewoo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
brass hammer said:
heel's afirin' lettle sessster! i'm thinkin' a SOLID PLANTIN' OF A SEMI-"KIETH" style big-bore projo[proficently] should be TRAININ'/ANSWER enuff! :poke:
You and I both share a love for those big semi-Keiths. :)

RIKA
 

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Yes, it is the one with "Fast Action" mode. The hammer is spring loaded and jumps back to single action when you take up the slack. It also uses S&W 5900 series mags, so they are easy to find, breaks down easy, and is just about the right size for concealed carry IMNSHO. I paid 3 bills several years ago, and love it. I find them on GunBrokers.com every once and a while for about that price but only need the one.
 

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Wylycoyte said:
Yes, and there was an incident reported by Tom Givens not long ago where a student of his fired 8 rounds in defense of his person. Lies, damned lies and statistics strike again.

And frankly, you'd better worry about proper grip with a revolver as well. At 15 feet, having a grip too low on a snubby puts rounds about 2-3 feet low if you're pointshooting. That little problem never showed up at the range, but it showed up after sprinting 100 yards up to the target and doing a quick grip & rip.
If the guy was using a Taurus 608 in .357 the capacity is 8. Why do you have to use a snubby in a revolver and get to use a 4 inch or more barrle on a semi.
 

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T. Daves said:
If the guy was using a Taurus 608 in .357 the capacity is 8..

I suppose its a good thing he didn't need 9, then. Besides, the refutation concerned the statistical average of 1.5 rounds being needed in the "average" gunfight. I daresay that gunfights are rare enough that any "average" is a very dubious number, and that I want every possible advantage stacked in my favor if I happen to be caught in the damn thing.

T. Daves said:
Why do you have to use a snubby in a revolver and get to use a 4 inch or more barrle on a semi.
I didn't say you *had to*. That was what I was shooting at the time I had that particular problem, and the problem is especially pronounced with the snubby revolver. It also serves as a glaring exception to the "not having to worry about grip" hypothesis.
 

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Wylycoyte said:
I suppose its a good thing he didn't need 9, then.
Of course, that can be said of all the people carrying the ultra tiny semis as a carry gun, or using an officer's model 1911, or a government model for that matter who carry 7 round magazines (lot's of people prefer them over the 8-rounders, or .45 Sigs, or Glock 36s, or. . . .

My point being, semis aren't the panacea many think they are, and revolvers aren't the handicap many think they are.

Also consider that in ANY one man against many gunfight, you can be overwhelmed, no matter HOW many rounds your double stack wonder carries. One should ALWAYS be proficient in reloading, no matter their choice of weapon, one of them being a New York reload is a good idea, although it's hard enough getting people to even carry a gun, much less two.
 

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One would be hard-pressed to find a gun fight involving a civillian that wasnt resolved in 5 rounds or less. One incident is not meaningful. I saw an article in the IDPA magazine that mentioned that a recent meeting of the IDPA board, all accomplished shooters with tons of experience, every one of them was carrying a 5-shot J-frame as their normal carry weapon.
Tom Givens also reported that two of his students had been killed in gun fights and the deciding factor was neither one was carrying, despite having permits. A snub esp an airweight tends to encourage taking it with you. I know when I leave home I never go out without the 432PD in .32H&R mag.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
The Rabbi said:
One would be hard-pressed to find a gun fight involving a civillian that wasnt resolved in 5 rounds or less. One incident is not meaningful. ... A snub esp an airweight tends to encourage taking it with you. I know when I leave home I never go out without the 432PD in .32H&R mag.
Any gunfight, whether it involves less or more than 5rds, is meaningful if I'm involved in it. Granted that a snubby airweight is easy to carry, I sometimes carry a Colt Cobra with +P 125 grainers and a couple of reloads but also carry a little Keltec as backup. Mostly its the Colt Officers 45 though. Though I'm not an experienced pro, at least I can learn from the experiences of others who know about real life. Seems to me like the Rabbi is so caught up in statistics and his own pre-conceived notions that he cannot learn from others however strong their credentials are.

RIKA
 

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Well, there's a couple of schools of thought here.

Sure, 99.99% of the time you will never fire more than 5 rounds in a gun fight. There are times (like the jewelry store owner that went through something like 3 or 4 loaded pistols in a shoot out in his store) where 5 rnds isn't going to cut.

Statistically, you are more likely to win the lottery twice.

But, it comes down to - what does it really cost you to carry a spare mag, or a speed loader?

How are you hurt by practicing reloads under stress?

Will you ever need them in a civilian shooting - doubtful. But, if your one and only situation happens to be that 1 in a 1,000,000?

Like many things, it's a personal decision.

I'm not advocating we drive around in an APC, wear kevlar, helmets, etc...

just that it may not help, but it doesn't hurt to be a little prepared.

:devil:
 

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As for the number of rounds thing, I carry 1911s in various sizes, and extra mags. A very close friend of mine who is about as squared-away a warrior as there has ever been has stuck like glue to his old Browning Hi Power because he's used to, and can hit with, it but also because it can hold 20 rounds. He only carries the one pistol. I tend to stick to 1911s in .45 because that's what I'M used to, and I carry a Commander and the Combat Master when possible, and when I can carry only one, it's the Combat Master. Comes down to a matter of personal choice I think.

Best,
Jon
 

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BigJon said:
Comes down to a matter of personal choice I think.

Best,
Jon
Yes, but personal choice guided by what standards? Realistic training and testing will demonstrate a baseline minimum standard, IMO.

Amusing anecdote related by Bill Davison:

Bill had just been to America and had gotten bit by the .45 bug while there, so he was toting some flavor of superduper .45 and a Milt Sparks 6 pack full of spare mags on a diamond protection detail in South Africa. The rest of his team was carrying Hi Powers. Anyway, Bill remembered the gunfight going something like this:

"I got behind cover and found that I was out of ammo and had to change mags. I ran up to the front door and I was out of ammo and had to change mags. I kicked open the door, and went inside and then I was out of ammo and had to change mags...."

After the fight, a number of his guys kept saying shit along the lines of, "Hey, Bill...something wrong with your gun?"

"No, why?"

"Well, it was always out of bullets!"

He went back to the Hi Power. :bird:
 

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The Rabbi said:
One would be hard-pressed to find a gun fight involving a civillian that wasnt resolved in 5 rounds or less. One incident is not meaningful.
Horsepucky. If the postulate is "all swans are white" then all one has to do is find a single black one to refute the argument. That was why I provided the example.

The Rabbi said:
I saw an article in the IDPA magazine that mentioned that a recent meeting of the IDPA board, all accomplished shooters with tons of experience, every one of them was carrying a 5-shot J-frame as their normal carry weapon.
That's nice...but one incident is not meaningful. :bird:
 

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rationalization that gang bangers, people on security detail, etc. aren't "civilians"
 

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Magnum88C said:
Of course, that can be said of all the people carrying the ultra tiny semis as a carry gun, or using an officer's model 1911, or a government model for that matter who carry 7 round magazines (lot's of people prefer them over the 8-rounders, or .45 Sigs, or Glock 36s, or. . . .

My point being, semis aren't the panacea many think they are, and revolvers aren't the handicap many think they are.

Also consider that in ANY one man against many gunfight, you can be overwhelmed, no matter HOW many rounds your double stack wonder carries. One should ALWAYS be proficient in reloading, no matter their choice of weapon, one of them being a New York reload is a good idea, although it's hard enough getting people to even carry a gun, much less two.
No argument with any of the above. My initial tirade was sparked by more by the "oh, just get a revolver and fuhgettabout it" attitude. I wasn't criticizing the choice of firearm so much as the seeming lack of standards of ability that were being condoned. Its quite possible that I misread the intent of the original poster.

Skills, tactics and mindset are at the top of the pyramid, with good supporting gear being less important but still necessary. The idea that, "well, the average is 1.5 shots at less than 5 feet, so we should just train for that" is similarly irksome, and at least in part resposible as to why many gun owners support or at least are indifferent to "assault weapons" legislation, IMO. "Well, I cant see any reason why Id need more than 6, so its ok to get those damn hi cap magazines off the streets!"

And FWIW, I think a a second gun is more important in many ways than a spare mag...there were numerous hits in the region of the firearm on the targets we were blasting away at this past Sunday. Any one of those could have meant a disabled hand and/or firearm.
 
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