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Wylycoyte said:
... Realistic training and testing will demonstrate a baseline minimum standard, IMO.
I agree, and I speak from first-hand experience, not in the sense of having had an armed encounter, but in ... how do I say this ... not being even aware of what crucial things I didn't know before training until after training. Subjectively, this was more in the realm of "when to ... " rather than "how to ..."

Best,
Jon
 

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krept said:
rationalization that gang bangers, people on security detail, etc. aren't "civilians"

There's a flag on the play...sentence fragment...first down. :eatpointe
 

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BigJon said:
I agree, and I speak from first-hand experience, not in the sense of having had an armed encounter, but in ... how do I say this ... not being even aware of what crucial things I didn't know before training until after training. Subjectively, this was more in the realm of "when to ... " rather than "how to ..."

Best,
Jon
That is the key, IMO. You have to have a well-defined "go" button, and you have to be aware of a problem to press it in the first place. Being able to apply violence with speed and shock in a ruthless, overwhelming manner is something that good training can really unlock.

Also, when you take enough FoF classes and see the total number of rounds expended in a simple encounter with 2 goons, well, having something with less than 8 just ain't all that comforting to me any more. Incidental hits, misses, and the fact that sometimes people just refuse to die for quite a while even if you've turned their lungs to pink scrambled eggs is a bit unsettling. I'll make do, and its certainly better than nothing, though, if that's all I can get away with having.

And if it makes you feel any better, the guy I train with who I feel is a combat god loves his Kimber...I'm not sure what he carried on hurricance duty, though. It'd be interesting to find out if he swapped out for his Glock 19 under those conditions.

Here's a very relevant read for this discussion, IMO.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385478348/104-8966732-3319128?v=glance&n=283155

Shit, Ive been looking for something to read on my vacation. I think I'll reread this. :D
 

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RIKA said:
Any gunfight, whether it involves less or more than 5rds, is meaningful if I'm involved in it. Granted that a snubby airweight is easy to carry, I sometimes carry a Colt Cobra with +P 125 grainers and a couple of reloads but also carry a little Keltec as backup. Mostly its the Colt Officers 45 though. Though I'm not an experienced pro, at least I can learn from the experiences of others who know about real life. Seems to me like the Rabbi is so caught up in statistics and his own pre-conceived notions that he cannot learn from others however strong their credentials are.

RIKA
It's terrible. I am so caught up in the reality of what actually happens in the real world that I wont listen to the people spouting off about "what if this happened" and "one time that happened." I should be ashamed.
But hey, if people want to carry 5 guns with 6 reloads for each, more power to them. I wont stop them. But dont expect any admiration from me. I just think its dumb.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
The Rabbi said:
It's terrible. I am so caught up in the reality of what actually happens in the real world that I wont listen to the people spouting off about "what if this happened" and "one time that happened." I should be ashamed.
Again you miss my point. He who cannot learn ...

The Rabbi said:
But hey, if people want to carry 5 guns with 6 reloads for each, more power to them. I wont stop them. But dont expect any admiration from me. I just think its dumb.
No, your above statement is just absurd.

RIKA
 

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Here's another one of those pesky black swans....

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1139910/posts

"Honeycutt (pictured, right), who was near his delivery van and had his own gun, fired 15 times at the man, later identified as Jerome Brown, 20, of Indianapolis. Brown was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead."

Honeycutt said he used all the ammunition he had because Brown kept standing.

"The guy literally stood there the whole time with his arm up," Honeycutt said. "The whole time, I'm popping off rounds ... (and) the guy's still standing there after 15 rounds went off in him."
 

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Wylycoyte said:
Here's another one of those pesky black swans....

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1139910/posts

"The guy literally stood there the whole time with his arm up," Honeycutt said. "The whole time, I'm popping off rounds ... (and) the guy's still standing there after 15 rounds went off in him."
Hmm, something fishy here. The guy stood there with his arm while being shot with 15 rounds? No, I dont think so. I suspect there is a lot more to this story.
 

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The Rabbi said:
Hmm, something fishy here. The guy stood there with his arm while being shot with 15 rounds? No, I dont think so. I suspect there is a lot more to this story.
You're right. I smell a vast, right wing conspiracy.
 

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RIKA said:
Now, how much of this expensive ammo do you shoot to satisfy yourself that the gun will function flawlessly with the new ammo.
RIKA
That was the original question.
 

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Flinter said:
Or.........you could just buy a revolver, sight it in, shoot when you want and be done with it.
That was my original response.
 

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Wylycoyte said:
My initial tirade was sparked by more by the "oh, just get a revolver and fuhgettabout it" attitude.

:shrugs:

My revolver has never failed with ANY ammo.

Now, who can tell me how to quote more than once in a reply?
 

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Flinter said:
:shrugs:

My revolver has never failed with ANY ammo.
That's nice. Mine did, but I'm pretty sure it had more to do with crappy ammo. It was the "shoot it whenever you want" statement that set me off more than the choice of weaponry. Rightly or wrongly (probably wrongly) that smacked more of sloppy standards of training than not.

Flinter said:
Now, who can tell me how to quote more than once in a reply?
Just keep cutting and pasting and stick html tags around things.
 

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Wylycoyte said:
You're right. I smell a vast, right wing conspiracy.
Actually it's your upper lip.

That's nice. Mine did, but I'm pretty sure it had more to do with crappy ammo. It was the "shoot it whenever you want" statement that set me off more than the choice of weaponry. Rightly or wrongly (probably wrongly) that smacked more of sloppy standards of training than not
Mine failed once in an IDPA shoot but again, I think that was crappy ammo. It deposited a slice of metal jacket on the forcing cone and seized up the cylinder.
I believe there has never been a failure recorded with a revolver in an actual encounter. Thats pretty comforting. And more than I can say for the 1911.
 

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Wylycoyte said:
There's a flag on the play...sentence fragment...first down. :eatpointe
WHOA!,,crank the gun-turrents back TOWARD THE LEFT![i.e. ENEMY]
now i'm going to ask 'YOU' a question[i.e. NOT POSE UNDER A PSYDO-MONIKER] what are some reputable sites for ordering "HI-CAP" MAGAZINES
[in the 'c-z-75/a.r. class],,,MISTER-'hot-butter' in certain places of the body! :roflmao1: :roflmao1: :roflmao1: :santa:
 

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Wylycoyte said:
That is the key, IMO. You have to have a well-defined "go" button, and you have to be aware of a problem to press it in the first place. Being able to apply violence with speed and shock in a ruthless, overwhelming manner is something that good training can really unlock.



Here's a very relevant read for this discussion, IMO.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385478348/104-8966732-3319128?v=glance&n=283155

Shit, Ive been looking for something to read on my vacation. I think I'll reread this. :D
thanks, fer the link bro![i've stashed it in FAVORITES!]
 

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brass hammer said:
WHOA!,,crank the gun-turrents back TOWARD THE LEFT![i.e. ENEMY]
now i'm going to ask 'YOU' a question[i.e. NOT POSE UNDER A PSYDO-MONIKER] what are some reputable sites for ordering "HI-CAP" MAGAZINES
[in the 'c-z-75/a.r. class],,,MISTER-'hot-butter' in certain places of the body! :roflmao1: :roflmao1: :roflmao1: :santa:
I'm buttery smooth in all the right ways, baby!

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/cz.html
 

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brass hammer said:
thanks, fer the link bro![i've stashed it in FAVORITES!]
Dude, its all of 7 bucks. Its a stocking stuffer if ever there was one!
 

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The Rabbi said:
One would be hard-pressed to find a gun fight involving a civillian that wasnt resolved in 5 rounds or less.
I expect that’s true; iirc, the average was something like 2.3 or 2.6 rounds or such. The issue to me, is admitting that none of us truly live by the odds; if we did, we wouldn’t carry a defensive gun, a fire extinguisher, or a spare tire for our car.

One of my favorite expressions (and one that perpetually drives my wife crazy) is; “It’s not about the odds; it’s about the stakes”. Odds are hugely against me needing a gun this week, and even more hugely against needing it this specific day, but I’m still going to carry every day.

If you own a smoke detector, you’ve admitted (at least subconsciously) that the odds aren’t the most important consideration. Just because the average is 2-point-something rounds, it would be silly of you to carry only three rounds in your 5-shot gun; yet that’s what “the odds” dictate.

Once it’s acknowledged that “the odds” aren’t what we live by, the choice of “how much beyond the odds” we plan for is just a matter of personal comfort level. Sometimes it’s just personality-based choice, sometimes it’s situation-based. (i.e., I carry more ammo on duty than I do in church.)

My personal opinion is that it’s a whole lot more dangerous to have two shots too few, than two shots too many, and since there’s no way to actually know what may be needed, I’d rather “err on the side of caution” as it were.

Put as a “cost/benefit” consideration, the “cost” of carrying an extra magazine or speedloader is basically zero, just as carrying the gun itself costs zero. The benefit of carrying extra ammo may be zero, but it also may be immense. So with zero cost, and potential benefit, why not do it?

Carrying a ton of extra ammo would carry a ‘cost’ with it, but it’s the same ‘cost’ you’d face by trying to ccw a Desert Eagle or such; not the fault of the equipment, just hard-to-live-with choices on the part of the user.
 

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Discussion Starter · #60 ·
Does anybody remember a troll named Golgo13? Everybody think hard.

RIKA
 
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