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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I sometimes wonder why so many seem to have this
"Tim Allen" mind set that always says power, power,
power! A simple question: is important to annihilate a
threat or to neutralize it?

Before the testosterone springs fourth ask yourself a this:
Are the courts through out the land as conservative as the
rest of the government? No they are not, at least not now.

If faced with a real genuine threat to life and limb. If I could flee
I would. If it were a poultry few dollars, I would throw it.
Now if that makes me less an hombray, well thats a cross I will
just have to bear. If I were left with NO other choice then I
would skin that piece and use it, but only left with NO other
choice.
 

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This subject matter is one of the interesting differences between the various states and their respective laws regarding the use of deadly force.

Some states actually require that the victim attempt to flee before deadly force can be used. In others, all you need is to feel like your life is in jeopardy. In any case these kinds of laws accurately reflect the social values of the local community.

Personally, I would only exercise as much force as necessary to neutralize the threat. In some cases, that may only require verbal warning vs. actually firing (or even drawing) your weapon.
 

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the use of deadly force in any form on another human being is one of those things we should take to heart as being something only done when there simply is no other option otherwise it becomes too easy to justify the use of deadly force too frequently and probably for the wrong reasons. been there, been a part of it, the use of deadly force settles things with such finality that not only is there no coming back but the consequences of such actions tend to alter the perspectives of those invloved permanantly.
 

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I wouldn't make my choice based on the laws. I would base it on my gut feeling and go from there.

A few years back it was late at night and my wife went in to the babysitter to get our daughter. While parked in the lot waiting I noticed a fellow in big baggy cloths walking up to the car. He was about 100 feet away so I cracked the window about 5 inches and got my 9mm out and ready to go. I had it in my hand pointed at the door. He walked up at 2-3am and asked me what time it was and walked away.

Point is, if he would have used his finger in his coat and said get out I would have.

If he would have pulled a gun on me and been nice about it without pointing it at my head with a finger on the trigger I would have.

If my wife and daughter would have been in the car and he had a gun it would have been game over for him.

What I'm saying is I would let something I felt was a close call go if it were just my life but with my family my my use of force always error in our favor.

In my house is another story. If you're in my house you better jump through a window if you see me. I have a tactical shotgun next to my bed with 12 rounds in it, a flashlight, laser site and a clip on the side full of slugs in case you kidnap one of my kids and are driving off.

I don't see any of the above as having to do with testosterone. I think the feeling of not wanting to die is universal. The only difference being a male to me is that in a tough situation I'll be the first in the house to die protecting everybody.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
James and Gary good input. I guess its one of those
things that have alot of slippery slopes. As you say,
laws vary so much from place to place. Of course
survival is a natural instinct but, split second good
decisions are almost a contradiction in terms for the
average person. So I suppose all we can do know the
law, and yes, to some degree trust our gut feeling.

To my pal "A", I promise not to visit. My house is pretty
cozy. Also at 50 I have more than enough of my own
kknot-head kids, and finally have them out of the
house. I sure as hell don't plan on stealing anyone
elses!
 
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My home is my castle ! You enter my house uninvited and the coroner will carry your body out !
Luckily law supports my opinion here in S.C. but I don't care if it was different.
Have wife and two sons and will only shoot to kill intruder.
Cannot afford to have a lowlife coming back after being defended with my tax dollars and slapped on the hand ,then let go free again!!!
No chance to repeat crime.
Will fire warning shot in ceiling - after killing burglar.
My friends and co workers know this and I will take the heat for it in case it ever happens.
Firm believer in self defense under any unprovoked circumstances and will not change my opinion about it.
Sick and tired to pay for too many scumbags and offer them better insurance than I can afford for my own family.
Rehabilitation or second chance acceptable in some cases but no tolerance for drugs and invading houses.
 

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And why be a learning experience for some thug? Do you really want him to sit in jail and contemplate where he went wrong, so the next time he will get it right?

If you are going to STOP someone threatening you or yours, STOP them for good. Neutralize the threat adequately before thinking you are safe.

From a practical standpoint, as long as the bad guy is breathing, he could pull a gun from someplace on his body while you are distracted and ruin your day for you.

IMHO, of course.
 
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in switzerland militery service is compulsary for like 95% of the populace. after they go home with their basic kit, uniforms, and assault rifles. any wonder at why the crime rate there is so low?
jamullins
 

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i'm with rich z on this one...... if i have to shoot some scumbag in my house HE WILL DIE AT THE SCENE i am not interested in being tried by a jury of my peers. haveing some one who pulled a transgrestion against me or mine testifing against me in court.

one other thing to remember always use factory loads to defend yourself with NOT RELOADS any one who is not smart enough to get out of jury duty is a danger.
 

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one other thing to remember always use factory loads to defend yourself with NOT RELOADS
You know, I have heard this advice many times, and do tend to question it. Will forensics actually try to determine if the bullet that killed a perp is a reload or a factory round? How would they know the difference?

Of course, if the projectile is something exotic like a sodium filled hollow point (don't laugh! I played around with that stuff once!), that would be real easy to figure out. But someone loading up new or once fired brass with stock Speer Gold Dots would look pretty stock factory to most people.

One other thing. Someone who breaks into you house, in my opinion, instantly revokes any rights they may have had before they entered my domain. As far as I am concerned, they are a deadly venomous cockroach that I have to eliminate as a threat immediately. Quite frankly, why take the risk? Every moment the perp has freedom of movement and the ability to turn the tables is a moment you are at risk to losing your life.

Don't even say a word. Just neutalize the threat. Even saying "freeze" gives the perp a warning and one entire second to act. Your reaction will always be slower then the action of someone else that is leading you. In one second he could drop down and leap out of your sight picture and then you are in a real pickle. If you do fire then, you will probably miss because he is no longer where he was before you pulled the trigger. Where is he now and what is he armed with? Some people can be incredibly quick to move when startled. If you go looking to see what the noise was in the front room, don't expect to get the "deer in the headlights" reaction if someone is actually there. Treat it like the very next instant, something could happen to make you dead. Just because you have a gun in your hands does not put you in control of the situation.
 

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again i agree with rich z..... these pricks can quickly get out of your site picture.... as for the reloads, all i reload is bullets i cast myself... they are hard cast 150gr swc from an old lyman mold that makes beautiful accurate bullets.. i'm thinkin the federal jsp factory loads would cause much more damage anyway.


THE 2ND AMENDMENT PROTECTS US ALL.............
 

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I think I said that Rich. Something I was told and I buy into it to some extent. If testing does need to be done how will they know the amount of powder use and things like that.

My thought was in the event you have to take somebody's life try to have as many facts known as you can because I don't really trust the law and prosecutors to do the right thing.

I could be wrong and I know people out there shooting .38 wadcutters loaded backwards so what do I know?

As for a lab finding out, I don't know if they'd go that far but I saw a show where they pinned a murder on a guy based on the little metal part in a handcuff type zip tie. They were able to tie it to one he had at his house and based on the tool marks knew it was from the same batch.
 

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Before We, All, Get Too Carried Away ...

:uzi: Do you Guys realize WHAT A MESS there is to clean up after you blast some BG in your home? Bullet holes and blood smears all over the walls, shattered TV, patio door blown out, and - what with all that pooled blood - you're going to definitely need a new carpet!

Then there's the problem with getting rid of the body - what to do; what to do? Compost heap, too risky and exposed! Put 'im 4 ft. down in the flower bed, maybe; but how do you explain to that nosey neighbor, 'Why' you're gardening by the light of the moon?

Of course, in the aftermath of a home break-in, you could always call the police; but there's sure to be a major hassle; and, even, a cheap lawyer bills at $250.00 per, now-a-days! So, ... All of which is one of the reasons, 'Why' I own a large Pit Bull. My motto: Let the dog take the garbage out! Much cleaner and easier to deal with afterwards; fewer explanations are required, and - with all that screaming, kicking, and arm waving - the entertainment value is terrific. Sure beats a slow night on TV! :D

Regards, 'AA' :santa:

PS: Oh, by the way, backwards loaded, hollow or bevel base, wadcutters don't work. They're extremely inaccurate; and they, often, keyhole and tumble around, a lot, on the way to the target. Use a properly loaded, jacketed, or hard antimony/lead wadcutter with a healthy charge behind it - great snubbie load! It'll give you everything you're looking for and more.
 

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A Gun In The Bedroom (c) Glenn bartley 12/14/03

Here is my opinion, about a loaded gun in the bedroom. It is only my opinion:

I like guns, I like being able to use them, I even don't mind shooting some dirtbag who breaks into my house and whom I believe is threatening me or my family with serious bodily harm or death. But I am not going to tell you that I keep a loaded firearm in my home. I still have one child, my son, living at home, and a wife and two dogs and a cat and lots of snakes and lizards and a turtle. My daughter is at college nearby, and sometimes comes home unexpectedly at all hours of the night/morning – I hope never with a snake or lizard of a boy. I would rather not shoot her (her boyfriend maybe another story - but right now I like him, he is a good guy) or any other family member because I was awakened by a noise, and in some half asleep groggy state I take action that is terminal. Of course, chances are my dogs will wake me before anyone even gets into the house or; if they only wake up after the bad guys are in the house the dogs will most likely keep them at bay long enough. That is long enough for me to take a moment to wake up fully, realize what may or may not be going on, and load for bear just in case. My dogs are scared of their own shadows and bark at almost everything. Hell I bet though that if a burglar broke in they would lick him to death. In that case his laughter would wake me if he was the ticklish type. If not, oh well I guess I’d sleep though it and call the insurance company the next day (talk about real burglars).

Back to guns for a minute here: Loading for bear includes not only loading the gun, but grabbing a flashlight, putting on shoes (a very important step, no pun intended). I don't need to jam my toes on the stairs. You know what comes next don’t you? Then in a knee jerk reaction I squeeze one off. What do you mean you don’t understand how a knee jerk reaction would make me squeeze one off? You know - the toe bone is connected to the foot bone, the foot bone connected to the ankle bone - on up through the knee - thus the knee jerk reaction. Eventually we follow those bony connections all the way up to the trigger finger. With my luck I'd shoot my other toe and start all over again!

My next action would be to ask my wife, in a loud voice, if she has her gun ready. I hope she has enough smarts to say yeah, instead of asking “what gun”??? Now do you really want to find out if my wife has a gun? Stop by unexpectedly at 4AM and find out first hand! During this time my wife will be calling 911, then either gathering the kids to our room or having them lock themselves in their rooms. We will let the dogs out into the hall - hopefully they will keep their courage (Ha!) and go for whomever it is doing all the intruding. I will be on the move with the dogs and the light. BUT before any of us goes out of the room, I will in loud voice challenge any potential intruder. "Helloooooooo Mr. Or Ms. Intruder, is anyone out there? Please leave us alone. I have a gun and my wife knows how to use it, err I mean we both have guns and both know how to use them."

Now you may ask, and I don’t blame you: “Why take the time to do all this and then to announce that I am coming out to take a look around?” Well this is serious, really serious: I, for one, would rather not be surprised to find out the police just raided the wrong house and I came out shooting or even pointing a gun at them. Chances are I or you would lose in that one - don't you think. (Please note we are out of the serious zone and back to delirious once again.) I would rather not wake up in heaven - is there really such a place for guys like me, and I shudder to think the alternative is real! Nor do I want to wind up in jail for shooting a police officer, not even for a night and then be released with a justified finding (yes I am being serious again just for a moment). Psychologically speaking, I do not think I could live a normal life (what is normal anyhow) again after that kind of a mistake even if it was the officer's fault for breaking into the wrong house, not identifying himself (or whatever), wearing a full black ski mask and holding a bag full of loot (or was that entry gear). Of course if you hear someone yell: THIS IS THE POLICE, but you for some reason have strong doubts: you can always go lock yourself in your room, and ask them to prove they are police or other law enforcement officers. They have ways that can convince you, believe me, yes we do.

Now on the other hand, if someone - let's say like the jealous husband of your neighbor's wife - gets all the way to your room with a weapon of almost any sort, forget your gun. If they want to whack you they are going to be able to do it. Man you must have been really drunk to let him get in that far without waking up! Of course, if you were in that much of a drunken slumber, be happy you did the right thing by not having a loaded firearm around because guns and alcohol really do not mix. Of course this will be little solace to you as someone cracks your noggin with a baseball bat just as your neighbor's wife jumps out of bed and runs out of the bedroom, along with your neighbor's dogs, screaming "Help Police". Now wait just a darned minute - let me go back to the Police issue here for a moment and get this straight. If your neighnor's wife and dogs just ran out of the bedroom in which you were having a nice drunken slumber - well is it possible just for a moment that the Police are in the right house after all - right behind the enraged husband who is hitting you up side the head with a bat? Was it that your neighbor called the police to come and get your fat behind out of HIS bed, and he decided not to wait for them to protect HIS wife and HIS dogs and HIS honor? Man you have gotta remember which house is yours in the first place - and no wonder you couldn't find your gun - it was under YOUR pillow, in YOUR bed, at YOUR house, right next to YOUR wife, where you should have been!

Speaking of wives here is another thing to be wary of when keeping loaded firearms in the bedroom. I would hate to wake up, grab my loaded gun from a night table and commence firing at the big bad hairy burglar/robber who just jumped me, only to find out my wife finally made it through the ice age and decided to - well you get the picture! A darned shot at that moment could ruin a truly promising good time! (Enough of delirious for a moment, let’s get serious again.) You really have to be careful with loaded firearms around the home. Do something to give you that extra moment to wake up before even thinking of picking up a loaded firearm if you can. Then if it is really a bad guy, and you cannot get away, and your life or a family member's life is threatened or you are threatened with serious bodily harm (or whatever your state's laws say are the proper guidelines to follow - and they have been met) then my guess would be: go ahead, you can legally blast the guy. Remember shoot to stop - but if the bad guy does not stop threatening your life until dead - well you shot to stop and he finally stopped). If you decide to do it otherwise, you know, outside the law - well you too may wind up in prison with: no house, no money, a divorce, no chance to see your kids ever again, and with a big hairy boy friend. I can attest, no matter how little I have gotten since I have been married, I do not ever want it where the sun never shines, as it so often comes to men in chains! Yes I think I would tend to be careful in such a situation, but I would definitely shoot if that is what had to be done to protect my life or a life of a family member from a bad guy. Now if only I can stop shaking long enough to load those darned bullets, I'd be ready for anything.

Best regards and safe shooting,
Glenn Bartley

Copyright: All rights reserved
December 14, 2003
Feel free to view this here at ArmsLocker.com forums, but please do not copy it for any other purpose without my written permission. Thanks GB
 
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There's the criminal case, and then

there's the "wrongful death" civil suit that follows the criminal case. The civil jury can't send you to prison, but they can see to it, that all your wages are garnisheed, forever, and take everything that you own. No, wadcutters, etc, do NOT turn a .38 snub into "all you could want". what you WANT is either a 12 ga slug, using hollowpoints, or a 308 auto using softpoints, if you have to shoot a man. Then you've got enough power to overwhelm the nervous system of 99% of men. The .38 snub is likely to just PO the gun, regardless of the load chosen, or where you hit him, unless it's in the eye-socket.

In Miami, Mirules walked up and fired 3 shots each into the heads of Platt and Matix, from 3-6 ft from the muzzle. He had plus P 158 gr lhp's, in a 4" .38. 1 bullet on each man deflected down into their necks, and bled them out. The 2 bullets that were in line with their brains were stopped by their cranial bones. So if you "think" a .38 snub amounts to a rat's butt, you are quite wrong.
 

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Did you guys know… that if this event were to ever happen, and the DA found out you frequented forums such as this, they could get a warrant for your computer pull up this very thread and use it to prove that you were looking for, and wanting this very thing to happen. Same with telling you friends “ya I’d kill the SOB” wouldn’t look good for you in court, would it? If this happens, the liberal courts will try to make you out as the bad guy, the crazy with a gun that can’t wait to shoot someone. Don’t give them the ammunition to use against you, my advice, keep information like this to yourselves, or at least when talking about it, keep it on a purely hypothetical bases (not what I’d do, but what “someone” might do). Just something to think about.
 
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if it's a 12 year old minority kid, u r

probably going to prison. Ditto if someone misstakenly (drunkenly?) broke into what they thought was their OWN home, etc. If you know what you are doing, you accost them from around cover, from PRONE, and their chances of doing jack crap to harm you are very low. If you have time to go get a longarm, prepare a "hasty ambush" (like so many of you THINK you will have) then you also have tiime to don body armor. If it's at night, a bright flashlight in his face will blind him, long enough for you to both adequately identify him and his threat-potential, and to allow you to have the upper hand.
 
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