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Discussion Starter #1
liveror spleen, with .45 ball,would you expect him to drop INSTANTLY? I've shot dozens of dogs with many loads, and I don't expect 223 sp's to ALWAYS succeed with such hits, altho its probably 98+% likely to succeed. So WHY expect such a load to stop an enraged, desperate,or doped up 200 lb man, hmm? to do so is unrealistic. If a guy is so OUT of it that he doesn't stop at just the sight of your gun, what you are dealing with is a super adrenalized, 200 lb ANIMAL, and you'd better have a LOT more ft lbs and destruction on tap than .45 ball offers. Millions of guys lie about lots of things, all the time, and the "stopping power' of .45 ball ammo is just one of them.
 

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Many of us would probably agree that .45 ACP FMJ will work with one shot 6 or 7 times out of 10.

If one .45 ACP FMJ doesn't work, just shoot twice.
 

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Andy, I don't know what part of the country you are in, but here in north Florida where I live you are just as likely to wind up in jail for shooting a dog or a cat as you are for shooting your wife. Discreetness would definitely be in order for this issue.

But honestly, if a dog came onto my property and contested my right to be there, I would not hesitate to safely remove him from the contest by any means expedient and final. I consider any dog that growls at me as being a threat to my health and safety.

Cats don't normally challenge a human being, and are much more prone to recognize that value of avoiding someone firing bird bombs at them.

Closest I have come to shooting a dog sized animal with a handgun was a raccoon (is that spelled right? EVERY way I type it looks wrong!) that had something seriously wrong with it. I used a .357 Sig, and it dispatched it instantly like it got hit by lightning. I did not inspect to see where the round actually struck, because if that animal had rabies, I did not want to come in very close contact with it.

But yeah, I think too many people think someone shot will act like the actors do in movies folowing the script. It has probably been a lethal surprise to some people when it didn't happen that way.
 

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Why have you shot dozens of dogs, Andy? Is it because dogs just instinctively don't like you? Can't blame 'em.

DC
 

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Discussion Starter #5
2 reasons, to see what ccw loads REALLY

do on an 8-9" wide chest, and to get rid of the animals jerks drop off out into the country, cause they are too cheap to have them put down in a proper manner, when they no longer want them.

Small critters, hit with fairly powerful, fairly fast jhp's, will have their organs damaged by the shock wave, beyond where the bullet actually touched, the same way a quart can of water will be blown apart by such a bullet. However, when you shoot a 5 gallon bucket of water with such a load, nothing of the kind happens. It takes a LOT more energy being transmitted in order to have the same shock effect, on a larger animal.

When I first saw MANY failures of .45 ball ammo on *****, chucks and the like, age 17, I figured that it was because the smaller animals just didn't have enough mass to show the effect of the 'mighty" .45. Well, imagine my surprise when the .45 did even LESS well against larger animals

Since stop or not is a 50-50 outcome, like heads or tails coin toss, 50% stopping effect is just LUCK, like the coin toss getting heads or tails is just luck. Many VERY feeble loads, like the .32 ACP,manage to stop 50% of guys, just because half of the attackers can be PSYCHOLOGICALLY stopped. ANY shot stops them. So to say that .45 ball stops 60% of guys is "damning with faint praise", at best.

As slow as most people are, and as easily rattled as they are, they will be lucky to get ONE chest hit, in a typical attack scenario, regardless of how many times they fire their pistol. Most can't manage .30 second splits with typical handguns and loads, so who SAYS you will get the CHANCE to fire lots of shots, hmm?
 

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Re: 2 reasons, to see what ccw loads REALLY

223 fan said:
Small critters, hit with fairly powerful, fairly fast jhp's, will have their organs damaged by the shock wave, beyond where the bullet actually touched, the same way a quart can of water will be blown apart by such a bullet. However, when you shoot a 5 gallon bucket of water with such a load, nothing of the kind happens. It takes a LOT more energy being transmitted in order to have the same shock effect, on a larger animal.
It's not a shock wave that causes a water filled can to rupture. The speed of sound in body tissues is about 4800 fps. Besides, by definition, shock waves are waves that occur in compressable fluids, like air. Water is, for all practical purposes, incompressable.

When the bullet enters the water in the can, pressure is created by the nose of the bullet pushing through the water. Pressure in a fluid acts in all directions. Because water is incompressable, it pushes outward on the can too. If the pressure is high enough, the can ruptures. Simple.

Your water filled can analogy is true if you are comparing it to a brain in a skull. However, skin and most body tisuues are rather elastic. A high velocity bullet that creates a horrible head wound will not create the same wound in a thigh muscle. Nor will an injury caused by high velocity in a small animal necessarily occur in a large animal.

For example:

A .223 bullet may rip a gopher into pieces, but it does not rip a deer into pieces.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
the reason a 223 wont rip a deer to

pcs is the deer is so much larger of a "vessel'. Plenty of guys will TELL you however, that a chest hit with a GOOD 223 sp RUINS the chest organs, well beyond the actual path of the bullet. That is what makes a good 223 sp a VERY good manstopper, and the CAR15offers many, many other advantages that no other rifle can match. The combo is a splendid one. I get a big laugh out of all the bozos who keep trying to even come CLOSE, with other guns and calibers. The next closest is the sorry assed Mini-14, and it's a LONG ways back in second place.
 

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I've shot deer, nutria and many beaver with .223's before, so I know exactly what they will do.

The .223 Rem is very good, but it won't vaporize large deer, drop elephants with single shots or down passing Chinese satelites.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
never said that it does. What it DOES

do, tho, is put men on theirasses, JUST as reliably as do 12 ga slugs, ie, 98-99 times out of 100 chest hits. That 223 level of performance CAN be had in a controlable, ccw pistol, too. by means of getting a 3 segment 70 gr . prefrag to 2300 fps in a 4" barreled 460 Rowland. It's readily provable, for and to anyone who really wants to know, by using animals. The big, heavy, slow bullet bser's don''t WANT to know, so all they will ever do is run their MOUTHS about it.
 

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Andy - just exactly IS this 460 Rowland? You mention it many times here, but I will confess that I don't have a clue what it is, and probably some other people don't as well.

Can you tell us more about it, please? Evidently it has made a big impression on you, and I, for one, would like to know more details about it.

Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Do a search for Clark Custom Guns

then search his site for the Rowland. The Rowland is a case that's .060" longer than .45 ACP, thicker at the web. They load it to 35,000 CUP, and get 230 gr jhp's to 1350 fps, in an 8.5"(OAL gun, they get the 185 gr jhp to 1500 fps, the 165 gr to 1550 fps. A 4" .44 Mag Smith is 9.5" long. Cut its barrel to 3", and it won't TOUCH the Rowland's ballistics. Likewise, the Rowland gains another 50 fps if you add a 6" barrel (making it as long as is the .44 revolver). I don't recommend any of those loads, nor such heavy bullets. I don't recommend practicing with more than .45 ACP type loads.

Because you can have real controlability, and more than .44 mag power in it, I recommend the use of an alloy frame, a Defender length slide, a 4 oz muzzlewt on the exposed 1" of barrel. 70 grs at 2300 in 4", takes about 13-13.5 grs of Bullseye to achieve, with a huge hollowbase in the solid tin bullet. The "exta" 8 grs of powder are necessary, as is sizing the bullet to .453", just to get the bullet to stay in the bore long enough to build up some pressure and velocity. 5.5 grs of powder gets 230 gr lrn to 800 fps in such a barrel, and for calculating recoil,, at least SOME of the extra powder has to be counted as "ejecta". So the recoil is the same as that of .45 ACP ball ammo, but you get 800 ft lbs of energy, reliable fragmentation of the 3 segment "Split Nose" bullet, and the temporary cavity effect of the 223 sp rifle hit.

If you want to take big game with this 31 oz (loaded) ccw gun, just go with the 90 gr, hollowbasesed swc, at 2100 fps, same gun. 880 ft lbs, and it shoots clear thru the chest cavity of a big Hereford bull (at 30 ft) :)
 
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