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I have talked with Dave about this situation a LOT. Bear in mind that Dave and his attacker were in a dance of death together. The attacker had a samurai sword shoved into Dave's adbomen and trying to shove it straight on through. Dave had his hand on the hilt trying to prevent the guy from doing it. They were practically nose to nose at that time.

When he reached into his pocket and remembered the .25 auto, he had only to pull it out and just about put the barrel of the gun into the eye socket of the bad guy. I'll bet he didn't even have to fully extend his arm to do that. With the adrenalin pumping and the speed up time that facing death had his mind racing, I think it would be simple to fire off 4 shots with that Beretta easily within 1 to 2 seconds. The Beretta isn't going to recoil much, and the bad guy really couldn't go anywhere quickly because the two of them were holding onto each other.

Try it with a clothing store dummy. Bet you can put those 4 shots into the head easily before it even moves. Or even use a small melon. I have a .25 Beretta and I don't believe this would be any superhuman feat at all to do.
 

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BS.... YOU talk about the "splits" you can shoot and how rapid fire you are. How long would it take you to fire off 4 shots with a Beretta .25 when you are supercharged on adrenaline and fighting for your very life? You are shooting at a golf ball sized target less than 1 foot from the end of the barrel. What MOA does that equate to at 25 yards?

Secondly take ANY self defense course and take notes. They TELL you to keep on firing until the attacker is neutralized and DO NOT count on one shot doing the job. Most teach double taps as a matter of course. This is in courses taught by LEOs, btw.
 

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Heck, in Dave's shoes, bleeding from multple stab wounds, I would have no choice but to make sure my attacker was stone dead, because I would likely be going to pass out at any moment. Once that happens and the attacker is still alive and can still move, YOU won't be waking up later on.
 

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Here's the quote EXACTLY from Dave's post:
I knew using a sub caliber firearm center mass would be a joke, so I pulled it up in front of my right eye, while thumbing back the hammer. When he realized what was about to happen, his eyes became REAL large. That was what I aimed for, his left eye. I only thought I'd fired about two or three times, but in reality I fired five rounds. That was a surprise to me when they told me that.
I hit him four times in the left eye, and the other round was taken into one of his hands, and went through my front office door fifteen feet behind him. The door is a steel cased door, and the bullet penetrated all the way through, out into the parking lot.
Two of the four bullets that went into his head penetrated all the way through, and fell spent, on the ground ten feet behind him. The last two bounced around in his head, one lodging in the upper cervical region of his spine, and the other in his grey matter. He dropped like a brick, and made a lot of back and forth motions on the floor, like someone having a seizure. Yeah, I guess it 'was' a seizure.
I don't see anywhere in that post where he stated that it took place in 3/4 of a second, do you? Read it again. How long does it take from the time someone sees a gun pointing at his eyesocket to raise his hand to catch a bullet in the hand? How fast can you pull the trigger on a semi-auto when you are in overdrive fighting for your life? Dave had the gun in his right hand, his left hand on the sword and/or the hands/arms of the bad guy and puts the bullets into the left eye. That was the side of the perp closest to his right hand, so at MOST that eyeball was maybe a foot away from the end of the barrel. Even if that head reacted backwards at the first shot (which wouldn't be all that much from such a small caliber projectile), the eyeball was still well within range and an easy target for the subsequent shots. The head would have had to turn nearly 90 degrees to move the eyesocket to where it could not be hit by the later shots fired. If it was moved directly BACKWARDS by the shots, it still would not make the target hard to hit.

Anyone firing a Beretta .25 knows that recoil is minimal, so there is NO problem whatsoever putting all those shots into a golf ball. Try it. Get a melon that has about the mass of a head and draw a two inch diameter target on it. Then fire a .25 caliber handgun at it from 1 foot away and see if you can duplicate this "impossible" feat.

Dave didn't say it only took 3/4 of a second to fire those shots. In reality he didn't even know how many shots he had fired, much less how long it took. I am certain his time sense was completely out the window at that point. He is also an expert pistol shot and I have seen the trophies and awards he has to prove it. So what is all that tough about what he did?

So, Andy, someone in your book is lying if you say they said something that they didn't actually say, or does something that you have never done? So please, lying is when someone states something that is not true, not if someone states something that you don't understand nor agree with.
 

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223 fan said:
like I SAID, u r a liar. The FIRST 25, having "penetrated all the way thru his skull", dropped him like a ROCK, so you DIDN'T put 3 more rds into his eye socket, UNLESS you did so as he lay there on the floor (which WOULD be an act of murder).
And you, sir, have a reading comprehension problem:
I hit him four times in the left eye, and the other round was taken into one of his hands, and went through my front office door fifteen feet behind him. The door is a steel cased door, and the bullet penetrated all the way through, out into the parking lot.
Two of the four bullets that went into his head penetrated all the way through, and fell spent, on the ground ten feet behind him. The last two bounced around in his head, one lodging in the upper cervical region of his spine, and the other in his grey matter. He dropped like a brick, and made a lot of back and forth motions on the floor, like someone having a seizure. Yeah, I guess it 'was' a seizure.
Show me where it says the bad guy dropped like a brick after the FIRST shot, as you are claiming? The way I read this was that the guy dropped after Dave unloaded the clip, which is probably a much more realistic scenario than the guy dropping immediately from a single strike with a .25ACP projectile.

Besides, why do nearly all defensive classes teach a double tap? I mean, why bother when the perp has already bounced off of the floor at the first shot? Some people advocate two shots to the chest and a followup to the head. Why bother with those last two shots if everyone hits the floor at the first shot?

How many people have you said you have shot, 223 fan? I forget.
 

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Andy, exactly how many people have you shot to know exactly how quickly a person will drop after being shot in exactly the same circumstances? You seem to know exactly how all people will react when being shot, so from what experience base are you drawing from? How many other first hand experiences have you heard of that are similar that you are basing your decisions on? Do you think that assailant might have been on drugs? Do you think that might have made a difference in how he would react?

Heck, show me even one instance where a self defense training exercise recommends only firing one shot at an assailant claiming that the target will drop like a rock from that one shot. Why do they recommend at least double taps or more? DO you think there is a reason for this recommendation? If people dropped like a rock, without fail, from a single shot, then why would the additional shots be recommended?

I have been to Dave's place and seen the shooting trophies and certificates he has. He is VERY capable with a handgun. I firmly believe that him being able to fire 4 shots into the eyesocket of some guy he is grappling with at arm's length (at most) away would be well within his capabilities. I am actually surprised that he didn't shove the gun into the eyesocket as well for good measure.

As far as him being caught with his pants down when he was attacked, well heck, I guess you were always at the ready when those dogs came around, eh? Dave was at his place of business and people come into the shop all day long, day in and day out, without incidence. He didn't go out walking down the street looking for trouble. He did not EXPECT to get attacked. With people, sometimes things are quite different then when dealing with dogs. The stress of being attacked by a sword wielding human being is likely quite different from being charged by barking dogs, I would guess. But maybe if a dog happened to walk into your house and suddenly attack you, maybe your reactions would be quite different, hmmm?

So yes, Murphy's Law certainly had a hand in this situation. If Dave had been able to lay his hand on his Glock, the story would have been much different. But I'll bet he doesn't have a .25 Beretta outside of easy reach.....
 

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Quote from Bill Stillwater:
And, Rich is starting to look just as bad as you, MELVIN, because he is a post whore, for wanting all of the traffic, an idiot like JOHN MELVIN DAVIS generates. It's money in your pocket, isn't it Rich. Come on Rich, tell the truth.

Then Rich lets MELVIN, try to destroy a man that bested a criminal in personal combat, a man that deserves out praise, not letting a stupid, damned criminal, tear his reputation down.

I think you're damned disgusting for allowing this to happen Rich!

Now, come out here and talk about freedom of speech and all of the other liberal-ass platitudes that let you cover your assnatomy, while allowing this disgusting charade place.

Rich, you are begining to be beneath contempt. If you don't like me saying this, lets let this be your personal problem. Go ahead Rich, kiss MELVIN'S ex-convict butt again, as you count the posts on your forum. While you're counting posts, count this one too!
How do you figure this, Bill? I don't make a dime off of this site. Not one single solitary penny. The few banner ads I have here are being run for FREE. I don't get a penny off of them. This site comes completely out of my pocket. How much did YOU pay to be here, Bill?

So just what is your beef anyway? If you don't like the way this site is run, nor the people on it, then just go away. Pretty simple to understand, now isn't it? You can collect the money you paid to be here at the door on your way out....

From what I can determine, YOU have a gunkid fetish. And that, bud, is not my problem, it is yours. You really need to get a life.

Matter of fact, I have a very difficult time recalling anything you have posted here that was in any form positive or helpful and NOT an attack on someone else. You have tried everything you can think of to get me to ban 223 fan/andy, and they failed, so now the plan is to attack me directly, eh? So tell me, just who the heck needs YOU here? You were just frothing at the mouth hoping I would allow you to be a moderator here, now weren't you? Not a chance, bud. Not a chance. One thing I have learned in the years of running message boards is to recognize a pathologically destructive personality.

BTW, Dave knows where I stand with him. Go ahead, ask him.

So anyway, since you brought this up, let me lay the law down to YOU right here and right now. If you attack anyone on this site, either directly, via innuendo, or by implication, you are gone. If you want to contribute to this site and be helpful to the other people participating here, then do so, but not in the manner in which you have been doing so.

So go ahead, I am awaiting the expected derogatory laced response to this post.......
 

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Rich, you need to recognize, that an opinion opposed to your's is not an attack -- these words are expressions of my opinion.
So the below are expressions of your opinion and not an attack, Bill?

And, Rich is starting to look just as bad as you, MELVIN, because he is a post whore, for wanting all of the traffic, an idiot like JOHN MELVIN DAVIS generates. It's money in your pocket, isn't it Rich. Come on Rich, tell the truth.

Then Rich lets MELVIN, try to destroy a man that bested a criminal in personal combat, a man that deserves out praise, not letting a stupid, damned criminal, tear his reputation down.

I think you're damned disgusting for allowing this to happen Rich!

Now, come out here and talk about freedom of speech and all of the other liberal-ass platitudes that let you cover your assnatomy, while allowing this disgusting charade place.

Rich, you are begining to be beneath contempt. If you don't like me saying this, lets let this be your personal problem. Go ahead Rich, kiss MELVIN'S ex-convict butt again, as you count the posts on your forum. While you're counting posts, count this one too!

And, Rich, if you want to ban me over ripping your butt over being a post whore, and protecting MELVIN, I will consider it a BADGE OF HONOR! And what will it make you look like?
No, I am not going to email you at all. I will ask you right here and now to leave. Got that? Don't bother to reply to this post, just be gone.
 

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Stillwater said:

You are never going to understand anything MELVIN, why, it is because you are an ex-convict and automatically take the criminal's side of the equation. You are revealing more of the hideous inside of your mental processes.

And, Rich is starting to look just as bad as you, MELVIN, because he is a post whore, for wanting all of the traffic, an idiot like JOHN MELVIN DAVIS generates. It's money in your pocket, isn't it Rich. Come on Rich, tell the truth.

Then Rich lets MELVIN, try to destroy a man that bested a criminal in personal combat, a man that deserves out praise, not letting a stupid, damned criminal, tear his reputation down.

I think you're damned disgusting for allowing this to happen Rich!

Now, come out here and talk about freedom of speech and all of the other liberal-ass platitudes that let you cover your assnatomy, while allowing this disgusting charade place.

Rich, you are begining to be beneath contempt. If you don't like me saying this, lets let this be your personal problem. Go ahead Rich, kiss MELVIN'S ex-convict butt again, as you count the posts on your forum. While you're counting posts, count this one too!

And, Rich, if you want to ban me over ripping your butt over being a post whore, and protecting MELVIN, I will consider it a BADGE OF HONOR! And what will it make you look like?
Please read the post that Bill Stillwater placed in this thread. This was very antagonistic, in my opinion, towards me for my allowing someone else, who Mr. Stillwater appears to hate with a passion, to express their opinion on MY site. Even an opinion which I have been very vocal about disagreeing with. Mr. Stillwater apparently has deep rooted issues with 223 fan/andy and those feelings were obviously being transferred over to me. Mr. Stillwater, in my opinion, had one goal for being on this site, and that was to try to get andy/223 fan banned from it. When I refused, I then became a focus point for his anger as well.

I can take my lumps with the best of them, but quite frankly, in this case I felt Mr. Stillwater was way out of line with his accusations. The words are there for you all to read, so judge them as you will. I have earlier emails from Mr. Stillwater that were along the same vein, which definitely contributed to my laying down "the law" to him, but I see no reason to dredge those up and quote them here. If any of you, running your own site, would be complacent about those sort of accusations being leveled against you, then I just guess you are a better man then I am.

You all can fight among yourselves as much as you want as long as you are at least somewhat restrained in the language you use here on a public message board. But when any of you want to turn on me for my allowing you the freedom to do that, then you, as well, are welcome to leave and go elsewhere. I am not making a dime by your being here, and will not lose a penny if you leave. I lease my own servers, so it does not really cost me anything beyond the yearly price of the domain name to run this site.

So, with the above in mind, please note that this site is offered on an "as is" basis, so take it or leave it.
 

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No, my post was not directed at anyone in particular. I guess you can consider it general policy applicable to everyone. When I get busy, I tend to be very blunt and to the point, sometimes maybe interpretted as rudeness by those people such comments are directed at. Sorry about that, but right now this is the busiest time of year for me, so beating around the bush will not be in the cards at all.

Maybe at a different time of year I would have been willing to debate with Mr. Stillwell and try to come to some sort of compromise. But that's the way it is, I guess.
 
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