on dodging, cover-using men who are firing BACK. So much for your bs claims of "outreaching" 223 with your silly 308. The military knows what they are doing, and no, they aint getting rid of either the AR platform or the 223. The fact that some fringe fools think otherwise doesnt change a thing.
LOTS of missing is done <25 yds, rifle
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Lots of missing is done < 25 yds, rifle BY dodging men who are firing BACK, too. :uzi: 
Anyone who is dodging is NOT firing accurately either. :nyah:
So much for your bs claims of "outreaching" 223 with your silly 308. The military knows what they are doing,
They do? Haven't you been saying for years they DON'T know jack? Can we get a survey on that? Anyone here heard Gunkid say that in the last few years? I know I've heard him say that PLENTY of times. Now he says they know what they're doing. I know they let him get out quickly. That tells me they must have known what they were doing at least one time. :idea:
and no, they aint getting rid of either the AR platform or the 223. The fact that some fringe fools think otherwise doesnt change a thing.
Does this count as a "new gun topic" post?
Anyone who is dodging is NOT firing accurately either. :nyah:
So much for your bs claims of "outreaching" 223 with your silly 308. The military knows what they are doing,
They do? Haven't you been saying for years they DON'T know jack? Can we get a survey on that? Anyone here heard Gunkid say that in the last few years? I know I've heard him say that PLENTY of times. Now he says they know what they're doing. I know they let him get out quickly. That tells me they must have known what they were doing at least one time. :idea:
and no, they aint getting rid of either the AR platform or the 223. The fact that some fringe fools think otherwise doesnt change a thing.
Does this count as a "new gun topic" post?
Nice pictures Mr. Garand!!
Man, the Army and Marines have the best stuff.
M4s cover the short-range, MOUT and CQB stuff well
M-16A2s are good medium range rifles
M14s cover the long range stuff well
M249s provide heavy firepower for the squad
M240s provide medium range GPMG coverage.
The military uses a variety of arms to cover the various engagement envelopes.
Seems someone interested in surviving the apocalypse would want to work with several people who had differing weapon capabilities for the same reason, rather than suicidally insisting everyone be equipped with arms only good for CQB.
Man, the Army and Marines have the best stuff.
M4s cover the short-range, MOUT and CQB stuff well
M-16A2s are good medium range rifles
M14s cover the long range stuff well
M249s provide heavy firepower for the squad
M240s provide medium range GPMG coverage.
The military uses a variety of arms to cover the various engagement envelopes.
Seems someone interested in surviving the apocalypse would want to work with several people who had differing weapon capabilities for the same reason, rather than suicidally insisting everyone be equipped with arms only good for CQB.
Just because YOU "think" that the 400 yd capability of the scoped CAR-15 is "close quarters" doesn't make it so. Just because YOU are dumb enough to be in open country in daylight doesn't make doing so intelligent, desirable or necessary, either. I know better than to count on other people, you still live in fantasy land.
400 yard capable? Not hardly.
The CAR-15 (being the designation for the XM-177), with it's 11½" barrel, is a 40-45 meter gun, at best, with M193 ammo, and 12-15 meters with M855 (you keep harping on having the GI round. Well, the GI round is the M855, M193 for those reservists and Guard units that are still issued rifles with 1:12 twists). So, YES, the CAR-15 is a CQB rifle.
The 20" A2/A3 rifles are good to 200 meters with M193, and 150 meters with M855. They are accurate enough for 400 meter shots (the rifle length guns, anyway), but the ammo (your insisted upon GI ammo) isn't.
Now as for me standing around in daylight, that's wishful thinking on your part. Only a failed amateur criminal dreams of his targets standing around so he can take advantage of them.
The CAR-15 (being the designation for the XM-177), with it's 11½" barrel, is a 40-45 meter gun, at best, with M193 ammo, and 12-15 meters with M855 (you keep harping on having the GI round. Well, the GI round is the M855, M193 for those reservists and Guard units that are still issued rifles with 1:12 twists). So, YES, the CAR-15 is a CQB rifle.
The 20" A2/A3 rifles are good to 200 meters with M193, and 150 meters with M855. They are accurate enough for 400 meter shots (the rifle length guns, anyway), but the ammo (your insisted upon GI ammo) isn't.
Now as for me standing around in daylight, that's wishful thinking on your part. Only a failed amateur criminal dreams of his targets standing around so he can take advantage of them.
How about good for nothing?
Gunkid's arms may be good for some things, but his tactics will not even be good for CQB. His lack of planning will get him killed in less than 15 minutes after TSHTF, if his history is any indication. His pattern of underestimating everybody will probably not help him either.Gecko45 said:
It's not, dumbass. The 5.56 is the GI rifle rd. Lots of M60's won't be around, and you don't get good big game or long range accuracy with beltfed ammo. There's at most a few hundred M14's fielded, and very few of them are making any difference at all, and if the guys had scoped HBARS, the M14's would make a lot less difference. Just because you WISH something doesn't make it so, dummies.
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Do these not fall under the definition of 'insults to a member'?andy said:
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As usual, gunkid has been proven wrong yet one more time! I'm sure if you check your latest "Sgt Rock" comic book, you'll be brought up to date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M240
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M240
Attachments
Though I can't confirm it, I'm hearing from reliable sources the numbers of M-14's and M-14 variants to be issued in Afganistan and Iraq = 40,000. Large numbers of captured Dragunov's and copies have been used by US troops.andy said:
They already have them. While .223's can be made to hit at long range, the bullet's effectiveness is greatly reduced. However, a lot of the use of M-14's is within 200 meters, not at long range.
Regardless of why, many US troops are convinced that the .308 is better suited to their needs than the .223 M4 or M-16.
Sorry to disagree Gecko, but the M4 and M16(a2 and a4) have much longer legs than you stated. I've qualified with them for years and taken an M4 and an A2 to combat and been pleased with their performance. On the range we shoot out to 500 meters with iron sights and rack grade weapons. I've seen 300 yard open sight kills with an m4 in Hit, Iraq. That being said one of our snipers in Falujah scored a kill at 1,100 yards with his M40! Made the cover of Marine Times. Was a reserve SWAT officer from Texas. SO yes the .308 has much longer legs, but if the 5.56/.223 was so bad at range, I haven't seen it. Oh, but there is an M1a in my safe right now.
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I think he was refering to "actual", use ,-not effective range....ie distances from after action reports etc.Or not...
Fact is, bigger kills better farther, and for that matter, bigger kills better closer, especially when it can reach THROUGH, AND KILL DECISIVELY STILL....-ie through thin/wooden/tin barrier walls, doors, car doors! The two calibers can both be shot to similar distances, one just has
MORE ASS when it gets there. Yes, you can hunt/harvest meat with both, though the effective ranges will be much different- the larger calibers' reach/KE values would be very evident on med/large game, such as deer and elk, and given the choice, how about using said rounds on a charging bear-NOPE .308 is not ideal here, but its a damn site better than"popping off" some .223's .
But, IF you can only handle the .223's for your "do all",
then I suppose it would serve you well enough, though
not with the authority at distance or margin for error allowed with 7.62. Feel free to beat a "dead horse" though..... :scatter: :argue: :uzi:
Fact is, bigger kills better farther, and for that matter, bigger kills better closer, especially when it can reach THROUGH, AND KILL DECISIVELY STILL....-ie through thin/wooden/tin barrier walls, doors, car doors! The two calibers can both be shot to similar distances, one just has
MORE ASS when it gets there. Yes, you can hunt/harvest meat with both, though the effective ranges will be much different- the larger calibers' reach/KE values would be very evident on med/large game, such as deer and elk, and given the choice, how about using said rounds on a charging bear-NOPE .308 is not ideal here, but its a damn site better than"popping off" some .223's .
But, IF you can only handle the .223's for your "do all",
then I suppose it would serve you well enough, though
not with the authority at distance or margin for error allowed with 7.62. Feel free to beat a "dead horse" though..... :scatter: :argue: :uzi:
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145 Posts
beating a dead horse....
I think he was refering to "actual", use ,-not effective range....ie distances from after action reports etc.Or not...
Fact is, bigger kills better farther, and for that matter, bigger kills better closer, especially when it can reach THROUGH, AND KILL DECISIVELY STILL....-ie through thin/wooden/tin barrier walls, doors, car doors! The two calibers can both be shot to similar distances, one just has
MORE ASS when it gets there. Yes, you can hunt/harvest meat with both, though the effective ranges will be much different- the larger calibers' reach/KE values would be very evident on med/large game, such as deer and elk, and given the choice, how about using said rounds on a charging bear-NOPE .308 is not ideal here, but its a damn site better than"popping off" some .223's .
But, IF you can only handle the .223's for your "do all",
then I suppose it would serve you well enough, though
not with the authority at distance or margin for error allowed with 7.62. Feel free to beat a "dead horse" though..... :scatter: :argue: :uzi:
I think he was refering to "actual", use ,-not effective range....ie distances from after action reports etc.Or not...
Fact is, bigger kills better farther, and for that matter, bigger kills better closer, especially when it can reach THROUGH, AND KILL DECISIVELY STILL....-ie through thin/wooden/tin barrier walls, doors, car doors! The two calibers can both be shot to similar distances, one just has
MORE ASS when it gets there. Yes, you can hunt/harvest meat with both, though the effective ranges will be much different- the larger calibers' reach/KE values would be very evident on med/large game, such as deer and elk, and given the choice, how about using said rounds on a charging bear-NOPE .308 is not ideal here, but its a damn site better than"popping off" some .223's .
But, IF you can only handle the .223's for your "do all",
then I suppose it would serve you well enough, though
not with the authority at distance or margin for error allowed with 7.62. Feel free to beat a "dead horse" though..... :scatter: :argue: :uzi:
Actually my reference was the distances at which M193 and M855 reach 2700 FPS. Reason being, above that velocity is where you get reliable fragmentation. I.e. where they are most effective.MustangO3 said:
I think what you are reporting on is the marksmanship of troopers, not effectiveness of their weapons system. IOW, they're placing their hits properly, a hit to the heart or head is going to shut someone down, whether the bullet fragments or not. However, for more marginal hits, the 5.56 has proven to be a poor stopper, UNLESS it fragments, in which case it's devastating.
FWIW, at the ranges I'll likely see as non-military are well within the fragmentation range of the 5.56mm, even the M855, out of a 16" or longer weapon (since I'm not going to go through the NFA hassle just to lop off another 1.5" to get an M4), and is my weapon of choice.
When I hunt, I use an old Mauser. The deer seemed toi think the 8mm is an effective cartridge.
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