[Terry G]

I think you are more correct than I am. I contacted a friend who has access to M-1 carbines and asked him about the FPS thing. ( Believe or not the Department of Justice still has carbines with push button safety's in their inventory, circa 1940?) He said the Carbines chronographed at 1610 FPS to 1633 FPS with Military Ball. But he put some Winchester down range (110 Grain SP) that were kicking at 1840 FPS. SO the modern ones might be faster than I thought. Be that as it may, I shot a 160 lb. (Field Dressed) Whitetail Doe two years ago with a Browning BAR, 30/06,180 Grain Remington Soft Point than ran a measured 227 yards after being hit. When I opened her up, I found both lungs and the front of the heart blown to tatters. If I had been using a .30 Carbine, I would still be chasing her, or more likely the coyotes would have ate her. .30 Carbine for Whitetail? No way. You'll definitely wound more than you harvest.

 

[andy]

I call u a liar about the deer, first off,

but the fact remains that you can easily HANDLOAD a good 110 gr sp to 1900 fps, and if you understand the limitations of the carbine, keep the shots sideways into the ribcage, and the ranges inside 50m, the Carbine will take every deer you hit properly, without it running more than 100 yds, and usually not more than 50m.

EVERY year, guys go deer hunting with shotguns, bead sights, muzzleloaders, and pistols with which they have NO more effective range than 50m, and NOBODY has more reach than that with a bow and arrow, and every year, thousands of guys take deer with arrows

Just because YOU are a bozo who can't figure out how to make the 30C effective doesn't mean John can't. I know for a fact that he DOES know how to do so.

 

[John in AR]

I think you are more correct than I am. I contacted a friend who has access to M-1 carbines and asked him about the FPS thing. ( Believe or not the Department of Justice still has carbines with push button safety's in their inventory, circa 1940?) He said the Carbines chronographed at 1610 FPS to 1633 FPS with Military Ball. But he put some Winchester down range (110 Grain SP) that were kicking at 1840 FPS...

That's good to hear about the modern factory stuff. Regarding the handloading thing, I've considered it, as all it would take would be one set of dies for my press, but I've never done it. I don't reload much of anything anymore, since the calibers I mainly shoot (.223, .22LR, and 9mm) are ones I can get pretty cheap without the reloading hassle.

It would almost certainly be possible to easily reload the .30C to make it more effective than with currently-available factory stuff (and certainly cheaper), but I don't shoot them enough to worry about it. I've put probably 300 or so rounds thru each gun, testing guns and magazines, and sighting, and that's about it. Now they're mainly 'backup' guns. Either both in the safe, or one in the safe and one in the truck.

While not ideal for deer, our deer here are small, and I hunt with guys who (literally) still hunt them successfully with .32-20 and .25-20 leverguns. Don't recall the numbers on those, but the .30C's bound to be more powerful than they are...?

Kind of a moot point; as I said, I don't shoot them much now. They're just "insurance". Got them cleaned up, fitted up, slightly accessorized (five magazines each, slings & buttstock mag pouches), got a can full of ammo, and will likely (hopefully) still have most of that can of ammo left when my kids inherit them.

I really need to quit being so cheap & just buy a chronograph, huh?

 

[Aslan]

but the fact remains that you can easily HANDLOAD a good 110 gr sp to 1900 fps, and if you understand the limitations of the carbine, keep the shots sideways into the ribcage, and the ranges inside 50m, the Carbine will take every deer you hit properly, without it running more than 100 yds, and usually not more than 50m.

EVERY year, guys go deer hunting with shotguns, bead sights, muzzleloaders, and pistols with which they have NO more effective range than 50m, and NOBODY has more reach than that with a bow and arrow, and every year, thousands of guys take deer with arrows

Just because YOU are a bozo who can't figure out how to make the 30C effective doesn't mean John can't. I know for a fact that he DOES know how to do so.

Well GK, there's lot's of factors you leave out in your accusation.

First of all, deer population densities are not the same throughout the united states. There are areas where you will routinely encounter large numbers of deer at very close ranges, simply because there are lots of deer.

There are areas where you'd have to work pretty hard just to even glass a deer (think about coues in the southwest).

Terrain, like population density also plays a big role in what types of weapons are useful. There are areas where the shotgun would have a very hard time being used to harvet a deer. (150yd shots would be considered average range, with 250 being more realistic.)

You like to make blanket statements that conveniently leave out a lot of very pertinent information to support your claims.

Yes, there are places in the east where a shotgun would be more than adequate for deer. Places where a lot of hunting is done from stands. However, areas where spot and stalk is the only way to go, that may not hold true.

As far as Tery G's comment about the deer running as far as it did, it happens - even with proper shot placement.

I find it funny you doubt what he said, but like to claim that the .308 is useless because a rabit shot in the leg with one didn't die.

There was an informal study done a few years back about caliber vs distance a deer traveled after being shot.

the .25's (like 257 roberts, 25-06) had the shortest distances after being shot.

I had a mulie run about 150 yds once with no lungs and no heart. First shot took at the lungs and he didn't even react like he'd been shot, he just started running. I was able to hit him again when he turned and he kept running.

I finally caught up to him and he was down. When we gutted him, his lungs were gone and his heart was gone two. we could see where the bullets hit.

.280 rem, 140gr barnes X's.

I have no doubt that what Terry G reported about the deer is accurate.

 

[Teufelhund]

There is no accounting for what shot game will do, none, except when you shoot them in the brain. Then it doesn't really matter what you use, I've head shot with Ruger .22LR auto-pistols to my .375 H&H shooting 235 grains soft point Speers @ 3200fps. the result was the same.

When I was a kid it seemed everyone had M1 Carbines in thier trucks and that continued till the Mini-14 came along. I don't think nothings really wrong with the .30 Carbine as a "utility" rifle, though the .223 is better suited for the task being flatter shooting for varmints IMO. Moderatly powerful, LW and handy auto-rifles make good "utility" rifles, even if they don't qualify as "general purpose" IMO.

Teuf,

 

[John in AR]

...I don't think nothings really wrong with the .30 Carbine as a "utility" rifle, though the .223 is better suited for the task being flatter shooting for varmints IMO. Moderatly powerful, LW and handy auto-rifles make good "utility" rifles, even if they don't qualify as "general purpose" IMO.

Teuf,

Exactly. Main reason I got them was price. I stumbled into a special purchase and got them at $169 apiece. Altogether, got two rifles, ten 15-round mags, 2 slings, and two buttstock magazine carriers; all for just under $500 out of pocket. That's cheap, and it's why one of the carbines sometimes replaces my CAR-15 as my "truck gun". If the risk of personal attack is low, but the risk of vehicle vandalism/robbery is higher, the cheaper .30 carbine gives me a pretty-decent defensive shoulder gun, but it's only about a $200 risk, cost-wise.

My CAR-15, as I carry it, is more than ten times that. Just the gun, scope, and suppressor [$800+$220+$950] are right at two grand; not including anything else. (Ciener unit, mags, ammo, DSA stock, Otis pistol-grip kit, etc.....) That's a lot of money to leave lying around in a vehicle sometimes; a lot of money to me, anyway.

Not to mention the ATF complications likely involved with reporting a stolen suppressor.

That kind of application is where the M1 carbine (or SKS) really shines, IMO.

 

[andy]

So you leave the suppressor mounted for duty-use? That might cause some legal hassles, one day, if you ever have to shoot somebody. Full auto used, by a legal Class 3 guy has done so, according to Ayoob, but that involved lots of uncontrollled bullets bouncing around the neighborhood.

 

[John in AR]

Sounds strange, perhaps, but the suppressor is only mounted actually "on" the gun during the day; not at night. Reason is that at night, the gun rides in the front (with me) and the suppressor adds length, and so makes it unwieldy "in" the car. The suppressor rides "at hand", but not actually mounted on the CAR.

During the day, the gun rides in the trunk, so the suppressor being in place isn't a problem.

 

[andy]

I insist on at least one test shot, every remounting of the can, at least with subsonic .22lr. Man, that thing is a BOMB at your muzzle,if it's even SLIGHTLY out of line with thebore. I suppose some sort of "borelight" would serve the same purpose. It could easily make you miss a 50mhead shot, if it's out of line the slightest bit.

 

[andy]

11" barrel and 9" can is just as handy in the car as is a 30C. See, despite what a bunch of ignoramuses 'think", ol' GK DOES know the real score.

 

[RIKA]

I think that that 9in screw on can could get knocked out of alignment pretty easily in the car. Doesn't seem like too good an idea.

RIKA

 

[John in AR]

Regarding the alignment thing, using their flash hider, the can slides on quite 'tight', even before the threads are engaged. I've put it on & off dozens of times [maybe hundreds] just trying to see if I could make it go on imperfect; couldn't do it.

No fine threads or small or thin parts; everything's very 'hefty'.

Can's only 7", and only adds 5" beyond the flash hider, but it's still extra length and weight that I'd rather avoid when trying to grab it from the center console.

I may check it side by side with the .30 carbine; but I believe the .30C is still substantially more compact.

Not that important, really...

 

[andy]

if it's enough to make you leave off the can, it's not "unimportant". guys are fos about how much velocity you lose between 16" and 11.5". Try some Lake City M855 and see.

 

[Garand]

Melvin, where do you get your reloading data from? Spring is coming and I would like to try new loads in my .30 Carbine.

 

[Dorobuta]

but the fact remains that you can easily HANDLOAD a good 110 gr sp to 1900 fps, and if you understand the limitations of the carbine, keep the shots sideways into the ribcage, and the ranges inside 50m, the Carbine will take every deer you hit properly, without it running more than 100 yds, and usually not more than 50m.

EVERY year, guys go deer hunting with shotguns, bead sights, muzzleloaders, and pistols with which they have NO more effective range than 50m, and NOBODY has more reach than that with a bow and arrow, and every year, thousands of guys take deer with arrows

Just because YOU are a bozo who can't figure out how to make the 30C effective doesn't mean John can't. I know for a fact that he DOES know how to do so.

You do know that arrow shot deer can run a hundred yards or more after being shot with a heart shot? And my bow is effective well beyond 50m.

this is an 85 yd shot at a 3-D tournament a couple years ago...

I'm shooting a 420 gr arrow at ~290 fps

I also shoot with guys that make 100 yard shots with their bows.

my personal hunting limit is 60 yards with a bow, but under the right conditions, I wouldn't hesitate on a big elk beyond 70 yards. I routinely practice at 80 yds.

 

[Dorobuta]

I insist on at least one test shot, every remounting of the can, at least with subsonic .22lr. Man, that thing is a BOMB at your muzzle,if it's even SLIGHTLY out of line with thebore. I suppose some sort of "borelight" would serve the same purpose. It could easily make you miss a 50mhead shot, if it's out of line the slightest bit.

use a decent suppressor with a decent mount, and it can't be out of line with the bore.

 

[BigEd]

Melvin's WECSOG type suppressors can't handle much on and off.
Bondo, lawn mower mufflers, duct tape, bailing wire, steel wool, PVC pipe and Bazooka Bubble Gum don't lend itself to that too well.:nope: