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Discussion Starter #1
Not everybody has the money to get a fancy AR. Nor the expertise at making a Mini-14 the rifle it should be. And most 7.62 simi-autos are on the heavy side. Plus you might be real unlucky and live in California, NY, or NJ!

So, say you have a bolt rifle. Maybe a M44, or a Yugo M48, Enfield Jungle carbine, etc...

What to modify to make it a fast and accurate shooter. Fast at shooting and fast at reloading.

I'll start off by saying the Russian M44 sure needs the bolt handle turned downward! And the Yugo could use a 10 shot mag. The Enfield JC would be lovely in .308 (yes I know they make a No1 in that but those peep sights on the No. 4 are a BIG asset.

Any ideas.
 

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Personally I would stay away from the Jungle Carbine. I've owned 2, and on both the zero could not be maintained past 20 minutes. Accuracy on my 2, was terrible past 75 yds. I would prefer the Lee Enfield #4 Mk 1 myself. Spare parts are easy to come by, and cheap. There are 12 different sights produced to adjust your elevation. In this country, every mom and pop hardware store that you find out in the middle of nowhere still has .303 on the shelf. I would buy at least 2 spare magazines, at least 100 stripper clips and an M1 Garand 10 pocket cartidge belt. 10 rds on 2 stripper clips fits perfectly in the pockets.
 

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The problem with the Jungle Carbine, aka the Enfield No5, is that the .303 round with that length of barrel, the harmonics, etc, just doesn't balance well. It's a combination of a lot of things.

Immediately after WWII ended, the British Army was going to standardize on the No5, but after a lot of effort they simply couldn't get the accuracy problems worked out of the carbine. So, the kept the No4 MkII and MkI* until the FAL was adopted.

Right now there is a ton of cheap, good quality Enfields. I'd get the No4 MkI.
 

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I'd have to go with the No.4 Mk1 or the Soringfield 1903 or 1903A3 carefully tuned and slicked up. The Enfield's 10 shot mag along with the fast cycling bolt gives it the edge. Sarco or one of those places offered 10 or 20 shot repro WW1 mags for the Mauser but I have never seen one personally.

RIKA
 

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If you want a fast loading, fast shooting Mil-Surp Bolt rifle, the No4Mk1, Mk1*, Mk1/2, Mk1/3 series is your cat.
60 degree bolt throw, seems to almost work itself. The stripper loading is fast and easy with a little (and I do mean a little) practice. The Enfield is also the only bolt-action battle rifle to come stock with a 10 round magazine. So you'll have double the firepower you would with any other stock mil-surp. The .303 is about as powerful as the .308 (I don't think any target will notice the 100 fps or so difference), and is a very accurate rifle.
If you can get the Mk1 sights. They're a true micrometer sight. The Mk3 being second best as it is a slide type vernier adjustable in 100 yard increments. The battlesights on the Mk1 and 3 are regulated to 300 yards. Basically hold on center of mass (lower sternum) and you'll get a solid chest hit to 300 yards. Hole on middle of chest to about 350, and on the throat at 400. The Mk2 sights add a second "ghost ring"-style battlesight regulated to 600 yards in place of the vernier sight on other models.

Much as I like Springfields, Mosins, and Mausers, IMO the Enfield was the best bolt-action battlerifle, period. The combination of the 10 round capacity, the slickness of the action and the sights (which really is what puts it farthest ahead of the others) make it unbeatable.

If you're worried about the cost or availability of .303 ammo, you can always reload. Bulk bullets are about $20-$30 more than .308 in 2,000 round lots. Brass is about the same percentage more than .308 (won't break the bank). You can load them cheap on a Lee Hand Press if you don't have money/room for a bench press. Whatever dies you like, I'd also get the neck-sizing die, as the Enfield has "generous" chambers, and you can get away with neck sizing only for 3-4 reloads before having tio full length resize again, which greatly extends the life of the cases, especially since the full length resize works the brass a LOT to get it back to original specs due to the enfield's chamber.

Definitely take Garand's advice on the accessories to get.

Garand: about the spare magazines, do you have a good source? I've come up dry looking for them.
 

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can't be done, big waste of time and moneyl.;

u'll NEVER get repeat hits under 1 full second, as vs the 1/4 second that the AR manages with EASE. Why be 1/4 as capable as the next guy? It's just stupid.
 

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Andy you know nothing of tactics or of combat. I've never been in combat but I listen carefully to those who have. And -- I do understand some about tactics. The autorifle is a great and awesome thing to have but we are talking about bolt rifles in this thread. There are places where semis are illegal to have or carry but the BA is perfectly okay. Please get it through your head that a good BA is a viable battle rifle.

RIKA
 

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andy said:
u'll NEVER get repeat hits under 1 full second, as vs the 1/4 second that the AR manages with EASE. Why be 1/4 as capable as the next guy? It's just stupid.
Repeat hits, while they may be necessary with any caliber, a hit from a .303 or a .308 will definately slow your target down.

Relying on followup shots to make up for poor marksmanship skills, only encourages missing - after all, you can follow up quickly.

(which is one of the reasons they did away with the full-auto setting on the M-16)

Train where every shot counts, and under stress you'll make every shot count.

Train to miss fast enough to win, and you will miss in combat, only to die when the guy who trained to hit with the first round connects.

A hit is a hit - doesn't matter what type of action fired that round. The end result is the same. You are not going shrug off a hit from a bolt action because it was fired from a bolt action.

You really need to pay attention to what people are saying. I know it goes against your little fantasy about being invulnerable, but it might keep you alive a little longer should the SHTF.

:devil:
 

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For a bolt gun, I can't offer much advice other than proper shooter fit would be important. I.E., an "off" stock length would make operation more cumbersome than necessary. Secondly, a short action (.308 instead of .30-06, etc) would seem a good idea, due to bolt travel-length involved.


If the idea is "non-auto", rather than just "bolt-action", the lever gun would be worth at least considering. Calibers available are same as auto and bolt, with the exceptions of some milsurp-only calibers (7.62x54R, .303, etc). Browning makes a detachable-magazine lever gun that would allow relatively fast shooting and reloading, and it's available in calibers up to & including .300 win mag, but being a Browning, it's likely to be as expensive as an autorifle would be.

A more standard levergun (1892 or 1894 style) in the magnum pistol calibers would be quite effective out to their distance limitations, and in most cases offer cheap, low-energy ammo options for practice, foraging, etc, as well.

If the idea is "low cost" rather than just "bolt action", some of the lower priced milsurp autos can be had fairly reasonably. The SKS, Hakim, AK, etc aren't "ideal" in many respects, but still throw bullets.

For that matter, while I don't agree that "if you don't have an AR, you're doomed", an AR can be had new for $600 or under, if you have a dealer that doesn't charge too much for the transfer of the lower. My last one, I paid $200 for complete assembled lower with stock, and another $435 for complete AR "kit" with everything except stripped lower. So $635 got me a complete, new AR-15A2, plus extra complete bolt/carrier assembly (worth $100 or so), spare tele-stock with spring & buffer ($40-60), and full set of "guts" to complete a stripped lower. Maybe your dealer would accept the spare telestock assembly rather than cash; just a thought.

Largely off-topic I realize; just the "nonsensical ravings of a lunatic mind", so to speak... :)
 

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I like the Enfield MKIII's better than the MK 4's, but that's just me. I like the slick action and the sights. The only problem I have heard of, and it's never happened to me, is that the magazine can be loaded wrong by putting the rimmed cartridges behind one another, causing a jam. The Yugoslavian M48A's I own are certainly good battle rifle's, accurate and fast handling, but limited by the five round capacity. I do find them easier to reload with stripper clips than the Enfield. I would not consider myself ill armed with either rifle. Sure I would grab a Colt AR-15 if the situation determined it, but the "Military Surplus" rifles were designed to be accurate, reliable weapons that would take a lot of abuse and still perform. They both kick like hell, but with proper recoil reduction devices, this is no longer a problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
What about the 'Ishapor' (or whatever the name is) .308 Enfields or the No 4s the Brits made in .308?

I wonder if the Indian .308 Ishapor can have a rear peep sight and some kind of reflex sight where the rear sight is (assuming it's reliable enough and shoots strait.)

Or for that matter, a Yugo 8mm with peap sight and scope or reflex sight on the rear sight bridge.

And gunkid, I thought you were gone? If you were 'gone' why arn't you gone?
 

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I am going to play devil's advocate here for a bit, because even the devil gets it right sometimes. I realize that some people cannot own an assault rifle; however I do not believe any state totally bans semi autos (correct me if I am wrong). I also believe that a bolt action rifle is a very poor choice for a battle rifle with regard to it being an assault or defensive weapon for firefight type engagements. It is fine however as a sniper's primary firearm or as a survival firearm.

One of the main failings of the bolt action rifle with regard to a semi-auto or full auto weapon is not only the loss of the ability to reengage a target as quickly when using a bolt action, but the inability to engage a NEW target as quickly. So even if you are the greatest marksman alive, and you get your man first time every time, you still have to manually operate the bolt when moving to the next target - and most combat situations involve more than one enemy. It is not nearly as fast as a semi auto rifle. Another aspect of the semi auto is that you need not remove it from a combat ready position while moving from one target to the next; however, many people cannot operate the mechanism of a bolt action without dropping the bolt from the cheek. Even if you are able to operate the bolt with the gun still against your shoulder and cheek, think of what happens to your trigger finger, it is far from the trigger as it operates the bolt. Even the greatest marksman can not hit his mark while his finger is off of the trigger. On the semi auto or auto, the trigger finger is no further than just outside the trigger guard, and in combat may never may leave the inside of the trigger guard. Those seconds or split seconds saved by using a semi auto or auto over a bolt action could be the difference between your life or death in a firefight whether it be in a war or a home defense type situation. So I don't think it really pays to use a bolt action for a combat rifle if it can be avoided.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
The operative word, Glenn, is 'if it can be avoided'.

Now as for dropping the weapon to bolt, and transitioning between targets, I really think this is a matter of training. I know some people can't really manipulate a bolt, but I sure can. I've competed many times in NRA HP matches with a 03 springfield.

Whatever weapon you pick, you MUST learn what you can and cannot do with it. As for shooting quickly between several targets, the bolt is much slower at close range. And thus you should avoid places were you are put at disavantages like that (and have a good fast shooting pistol handy to!!!)

But like I posted, how to make a bolt rifle combat usable.
 

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I can suggest Gun Parts Corp in NY. They have an excellent 1,200 page catalog and a kick a** online catalog. If they don't have #4 mags, nobody does.

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/

I have dealt with them on dozens of occasions, I've always been satisfied.
 

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Called Tristar, the North American distributor for the Australian made AIA 7.62mm Enfields.

The M10 rifles will be available in about 2 weeks and the No4 MkIV rifles will be available in about 2 months.

The M10 is a scaled down No4 action chambered for 7.62x39mm and it uses AK-47 mags.

The No4 MkIV, as previously mentioned, is .308/7.62mmNATO and uses M-14 mags.

Both rifles used the MkII receiver affixed trigger group and are designed for use with a picatinney rail.
 

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Wow!

that's 'hearting' news!

thanks, :wavey:




[as, NOBODYS! doing nothing, till after 11-2-04[on a large scale]
 

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Glen, why I'm interested in an Enfield is for several reasons.

1) They are a smooth action to shoot. With a higher powered cartridge and aimed shots the biggest problem with a bolt action, especially an Enfield, isn't the rate of fire but the rate of reloading the magazine. With an Enfield, especially an AIA, you don't have to worry about that.

2) As I've stated earlier in several threads I plan on leaving the desert and heading back to the ocean. There I need a weapon that is super reliable and can punch through a boat hull at a decent range. A lot of boat owners have Mini-14's, especially the stainless one's, but the 5.56mm has a hard time going through the hull of most blue water capable boats.

3) At the same time I also need something which can drop the game found at northern lattitudes and will always function no matter what the climate AND still be able to produce a high rate of fire.

4) Legally, the Enfield, because it's NOT a semi-auto, has a definite ownership advantage. Most Americans think the world drops off at the US border and that the world revolves around the US. I, however, am not one of them and when this country takes a dump I'll pack up and split in a heartbeat, maybe even before then. It's a big planet, you know.

In Canada, for instance, semi-auto centerfires have a legal mag limit of 5 while a bolt action I can pack around with a 10 round magazine.

In Australia, I can own an Enfield and keep it in the secured gunlocker on the boat, not so with any semi-auto.

In Argentina, owning a bolt action centerfire rifle or even a pistol isn't that big of a hassle and 7.62mmNATO is an extremely popular hunting catridge, but owning a semi-auto centerfire rifle with a detachable mag is like buying a Class 3 weapon here in the States. They also have a national CCW with no restrictions or mag limits on semi-auto pistols.

Customs, when they board a boat, generally freak out a lot less when you don't have military style semi-autos on board and you have everything properly secured in a locker. An 'old' & 'obsolete' looking Enfield isn't normally what gun smugglers prefer to traffic in.

My last Enfield, my beautiful .303cal No4 MkII 'Irish' Enfield built in 1954, which was unfired and still in the factory cosmoline when I got it, was one of the few if only guns I ever kind of regretted selling/swapping. I was in college at the time and I swapped it for a rebuild on the engine of my jeep. That thing was so accurate it could tear the balls off of a gnat at 400m with iron sights. The recoil was quite manageable and you could get in pretty rapid return shots, never breaking sight picture with the target.
 

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your post was 'funny' mrostrov[bro!] #2/#4

on several points [2] offhand!

the center of the universe[s.p,] is HERE IN THE U.S.A.![man! i know biker/scum people who tried to do what you 'dream'] guess WHAT! they 'starve' out and come back to land![guess which portage/dock they limp back to.]

point#2 the pirates, will kill 'YOU' DEAD!with an open seas "friendly"
bolt gun!


one should have a pintle mount belt feed[minimum]/and shotguns!

long term life on a 'boat' is a nasty ' :wavey: choice :wavey:
 

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brass hammer said:
on several points [2] offhand!

the center of the universe[s.p,] is HERE IN THE U.S.A.![man! i know biker/scum people who tried to do what you 'dream'] guess WHAT! they 'starve' out and come back to land![guess which portage/dock they limp back to.]

point#2 the pirates, will kill 'YOU' DEAD!with an open seas "friendly"
bolt gun!


one should have a pintle mount belt feed[minimum]/and shotguns!

:wavey:
I'll start with the last mention first. I'm keeping the arms locker simple with an Enfield, a Rem 870 pump, and a .22 rimfire rifle, either a bolt or a lever action.

I was concerned about military calibers, but the jurisdictions that I was concerned about also require the extra permits for a pump shotgun, so I'll just pack a .308 or a .303 since they are such vastly popular hunting cartridges in many places and you can get reloading components just about everywhere also. So, if I go there, I'll just get the needed permits.

I get a lot of people who preach about 'pirates'. Ask anyone who is on a cruising sailboat or is prepping to move onto one and they'll mention with a chuckle how large numbers of people warn them in earnest about 'pirates' just lurking offshore everywhere in the ocean. Usually the 'pirate' comments are the first thing many people gasp out when you mention living on a boat.

Most people have simply seen far too many Hollywood movies.

Statistically, you have a far, far, far better chance of getting killed on your average psychotic American freeway than you do of ever getting waylaid by 'pirates'. You're also significantly more likely to get robbed and killed in your average big American city than you are in well traveled anchorages in the Caribbean.

There are specific areas, a very few of them, where there are actual open water pirates and in many of those areas they prefer to hit large cargo ships. These are generally places which I have no desire to go anyway, pirates or not.

Most 'piracy' against private yachts is just robbery or burglary by harbor thugs in a dinghy or a fishing boat. The vast, vast majority of pirate attacks are near specific third world coastal areas (the open ocean is vast and pirates don't hang out there). They tend to live primarily off of the vast amount of commercial shipping that swarms the world's seaplanes nowadays and the piracy is at choke points along these shipping routes, such as the 7 mile wide Straits of Malacca where over 40,000 large merchant vessels pass through every year. Your average merchant ship has cash in the safe, $millions in cargo, and a small, unarmed crew usually of between 15 and 25 men.

I know of one lady in her 60's that sails alone and networks with large numbers of yachts. She hangs out in one of the 'hottest' pirate areas on Earth, the Straits of Malacca. For years she hasn't known anyone on a private yacht that has been hit.

For example: There was a recent attack upon an Italian yacht near some coastal islands that are off of Venezuela. The attack could easily have been thwarted had they had an Enfield on board, but all they had was a flare gun, so they just surrendered when they couldn't outrun the open wooden boat that chased them for a considerable distance.

It had about 8 men with shotguns crowded into an open wooden boat with an outboard engine. If someone had opened fire at 400+ yards and then kept firing as they slowly closed (things move slower out on the water) they'd have killed every one of them and disabled their boat. After a few .30 caliber bullets tore through their boat with them in it they would have simply turned tail and run.

Out on the ocean you can see people coming for a long ways away, and you also have radar.

Whenever there's an attack, it's tracked and documented. You can access the reports on the web also.

One consistent comment about pirates that has been noted by those that have encountered them is that when they receive fire, they almost always cut and run. They have no stomach for being shot at. Most thugs and criminals don't.

Most cruising yachts are simply like motor homes but more comfortable and they go to neater places. They spend 95% of their time anchored, moored, or docked. They are like an apartment or a cabin that you can travel to neat places with and stay awhile.

Your average cruising yacht is better equipped at being a survival retreat than most survival retreats. They can be very, very self sufficient, and if you have to bugout, you can take the DVD and flatscreen, the hot shower, and the beer supply with you. The riots end when you are out of rifle range of the pier.

There is no piracy at all in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Hawaii, and many, many other places. It's these places I like to hang out in anyway.

I'm initially planning on moving to Puget Sound. It's an incredibly neat place. I've also lived in Hawaii for several years and living on a boat is one of the very best ways to live there. Even if I get a place on land, like on Kauai or Maui, I'll still keep the sailboat. I would never buy a house on Oahu, but Kauai and Maui are great.

One of the very best places on Earth to live off of the land or to hide out during a period of chaos is the coast of British Columbia.

I'd also, during normal times, like to just hang out in Canada for a while. All in all it's a very nice, civilized country that just happens to be awesome in what they have there. Ever been to Vancouver Island or take a trip inland to Banff? The inlets and fjords up the Strait of Georgia and the Queen Charlotte Strait are awesome. If you had to you could hide up there and live off of fish and game indefinitely.

There's also Europe. You can go to France, get all of your permits in order, de-step the mast and lash it to the deck, swing up the keel, and cruise the canals all the way to Switzerland. You can also canal clear across France and come out in the Mediterranean.

Yeah, all of these people that cruise out on their savings without a sustainable income, if they are Americans, when they run out of cash they come back to the USA to make some more. To them the USA is great and it feels like home. The same goes for Canadian cruiser who go back to Canada, or the French back to France, etc.

HOWEVER, it is a mathematical impossibility for the US economy NOT to crash. It's a done deal at this point, it's just a matter of when. WHEN that happens, the USA is going to suck as a place to live.

American has been running on the fumes of it's past glory for some time now, and it has problems that no one is willing to fix until the patient is terminal, such as the hopelessly monstrous debt compounded by things such as hyper-expensive military adventurism.

Since so much of America's industry is no longer in America, and the worldwide economy is just that, worldwide, the collapse of the US economy won't plummet the entire world into the abyss, at least not immediately. Eventually? Maybe. Forty, or even twenty years ago it would have done so instantly, but not now. It won't happen instantly in the US either. It'll be a progressive grinding crush as the American middle class is eaten alive and then destroyed in the process.

So, if a person's house is a nice, self-sufficient, sailing yacht with all of the comforts of home, and if you are in the US and things get really bad (like the LA riot a thousand fold) and/or martial law is looming, you simply untie from the dock and head for Canada, to either Vancouver or some nice coastal fjord. That or simply head for the open ocean and plot a course for Auckland or Sidney, or maybe even some really remote, way off the beaten path, relatively sleepy place like Truk Atoll.

All in all, it's far better than living in a country where the government plans on eventually tagging everyone like cattle using some big declared 'emergency' as an excuse. Just wait till a 'terrorist' nuke goes off somewhere and they claim it was smuggled across the border. They'll biometrically tag everyone while under martial law, or at least try to.
 
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