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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
of no live fire, but mine sure aint'. I"ve proven that before. :) When i got the Ciener .22 unit for the 1911, in CO, 2002, I was able to group 1.5" at 25 yds with it, sitting braced, first try, hadn't shot but a few score rds of 9mm and .45 back in 1997, and 50 rds of .22 in 1990, Last time I had been able to really shoot was 1982, I was broke all thru 83, and on the run in 1984. Didn't get to selling coke until 1985. So basically, CO was the first time in 20 years that I'd been able to shoot at all.

It took me most of a day to be able to group 2" at 25 yds, with the .22 unit, from Weaver. It took several more sessions of .22 and then a few more with the .45, and I had open wear El Prezs, all C zone hits and over half A zone back under 7 seconds. Full 180 degree pivot, before drawing, surrender start, full 10 yds to the targets, full 3 yds apart, edge to edge. I was working 90 hour weeks, driving a truck, or i'd have gotten it back under 6 seconds in another week or so. Most of el prez, believe it or not, is the pivot, draw and first hit and reload and hit. If you can get those 2 moves down under 3.5 seconds, you can easily deliver a 7 second "run. 4 traverse-and-hits, in .35 second each, aint tough and neither are 6 repeat hits at .30 second each. 1.40 for the first group and 1.80 second for the second, so a total of 3.20 seconds.

So, pivot draw and hit in 1.5 seconds, not all that tough, mostly learnable with airsoft, reload and hit in 2.0 seconds, also learnable with airsoft. 3.5 seconds, then 3.20 seconds of repeat shots, 6.7 second total. and only a few thousand men on the face of the earth have ever proven that they can deliver such performance, reliably, on demand. and I did this WiTHOUT any mag well funnel, no compensator, with full charge .45 ammo and no mag base pads, too. When you take off all the "star wars" stuff and make the guys do it RIGHT (not 7 yds, not 1 yd between targets, not letting them start facing the target, not letting them use bs gear or wussy loads, 7 seconds is pretty good performance. and sub 5.5 seconds is world class.

Again, this is for all hits in the C zone or better, at least half of them in the A zone. If you drop a hit, not only do you lose that potential 5 pts, but they penalize you ANOTHER 10 pts. So you don't shoot any faster than you can get reliable good hits, or it will be your undoing. Sure, you might crack 5 seconds, b ut you'll be dividing that time into 35 pts, instead of 55 points. :)

Once you get really good, dryfire, .177 and airsoft are every bit as effective a training method, as .22lr, and a large, heavy 9mm is very little harder to use than a .22. At 5 yds, anyone can do with such a 9mm anything that they can do with a .22 at 10 yds, when it comes to fast stuff, without a doubt.

Slowfire is so easy, once you know how, that dryfire suffices to maintain nearly all of your skill, and .177 suffices for nearly all of the remainder.

Sure, guys have to fire 30k+ rds per year if they want to be in the top 10% at high level matches, which are full of stuff that nobody could get done with a carbine, even, if it was for real. taking on 3 or more armed men at 25+ yds, when you'd have to get lead into all of them in 1.5 seconds in order for luck to not be the main determinant what happens,

You'd need a Benelli autoloader loaded with 3" mag loads of 000 buck and a very specialized choke/barrel for such stuff. Double-tapping all 3 in 4 seconds, from the leather is not going to cut it! :). Sure, that's difficult, but it's not fast enough to save you. Any one of them could have a shotgun and easily be able to shoulder it and hit you in 1.5 seconds.

So, a helluva lot of what guys spend time and ammo on excelling at, for the matches, is utterly impractical. Such stuff is far, far harder to get good at, (and stay good at) than really fast stuff at <5yds, or slowfire group type shooting at 25 yds, or staying on the chest at 50 yds, Nobody has ever proven that they could reliably do, that at even 25 yds, with a handgun, while they are being shot-at.

In all my years of research, I only found a couple of cases where anyone proved even that much. They either got lucky with one shot (like Hickock vs Dave Tutt in Spld Mo, or they missed many times and got 1 or more lucky hits.

The big basepads on the mag, extended mag release, and "trumpet mouth" mag well funnel are worth 3/4 second off of your mag swap times. The speed rig and mag pouch are worth over 1/4 second off of your draw and hit, reload and hit, and the wussy loads or compensator are worth another full second off of the 12 shot string of fire. That's the difference between 6.5 seconds and 4.5 seconds.

If you let the competitors cheat, (ie, not pivot, fire at 7 yds instead of 10 yds, and not have the targets spread out like the course calls for, that's another 1/2 second off of their times. So, various forms of bs gear and cheating are worth 2.5 seconds on the El Presidente match total time. Real deal performance of 7.0 seconds or better, is the very same thing as 4.5 seconds with all the bs being allowed. It's every bit as difficult, if not more so.

A time on the El Prez of 7 seconds is pretty damned good, is what I'm saying. To achieve it with so little practice, after so many years of not even touching a gun, means massive amounts of such skills stay with you, with just mental practice and dryfiring/airsoft. BAsically, the main thing is to work on the pivot draw and hit, reload and hit. That is what I did, and it let me deliver the 7 second times with a very small amount of practice.

If you think you are "good", go try this set up some time. Start facing away from 3 torsos, at 10 yds, hands at surrender. 3 yds between targets, edge to edge. On signal, pivot, draw, hit each of the 3 twice, swap mags, hit each of the 3 again. Have somebody time you, and check your hits. 9 seconds is faster than the average cop can deliver, guaranteed. Many guys drop 1 or more hits in 11 seconds, too. :) down 2 hits means down 30 of the potential 60 points and if you completely miss 1=2, you'll have a lot of D zone hits, too. D's are 3 pts, the 10" chest circle is 4 points, the head is a lucky fluke, shouldn't count at all, really. The C zone is 12 x 14", IIRC, and the rest of the torso is a "D. So you can easily end up dividing 10 seconds into 20 pts. A fine score, real deal, now, is 60 pts in sub 6.0 seconds, a match "factor" of over 10. Believe me, a match factor of 4 is a LONG ways from an 8 factor! Like 20 seconds for the 100 yd dash, instead of 10 seconds.


The el prez has been the evaluative string of fire for millions of guys over the past 40 years. I do NOT regard it as being evaluative of realistic skill, but so many have used it as a baseline that it's a good way to see where you're at, comparatively, with basic skills. I don't regard a mag swap as meaning jack squat for civilian handgun stuff, nor having to hit at more than 5 yds, nor having to hit more than 2 guys (once each) Cause you just aint going to have time for such bs, unless you get very, very lucky.


the incident which inspired cooper to design the el prez was some israeli spy, out on the streets of Beirut, after curfew.
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
The Israeli stupidly blundered around a corner, and there were 3 Arab soldiers, smoking and joking, with AK's slung over their shoulders ,supposedly at a range of 10 yds! To be caught out after curfew, at that time, meant a week of torture before death, guys. So, he happened to HAVE the time needed to draw from his concealed shoulder rig and fire twice at each one, bop back to cover, swap mags and flee. Because they were surprised, at sling arms and probably safety engaged on those slow arsed AK's, maybe even chamber empty, The spy HAD 3+ seconds in which to hit all 3. But what if they'd been at the ready, hmm? Then full auto fire would have been headed his way in 1.5 seconds, maybe even sub 1.0 seconds. DUH, and only by pure luck had it NOT been exactly like that.

Now, wtf are you doing out there, and wtf are you doing just blundering around corners, instead of peeking first? Hands in pocket, saving you 1/2 second would be nice, eh? So would having your earvalve earplugs in place. Why not have them? Cause you're stupid?

How about peeking each time before rounding the corner? How about seeing them first and just avoiding them, or if need be, firing once each at them, from cover/surprise, First one is hit before he knows anything, second one is hit before he can shut his flabbergasted mouth, much less do anything useful. 3rd one is hit before he can decide where the fire is coming from and get effective fire on a cover user's head. Such a response would be FAR more likely to suffice than just blundering around, needing LUCK to survive! If you are LUCKY, you never run into them in the first place!
 
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