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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
and they do NOT acheive max speed instantly. So you can figure on 25 fps for dodging speed of an agile young man, or faster. He's real unlikely to be taking any more than an 8 ft stride, too. So he is taking 3-4 strides per second. He can EASILY change directions 30 degrees, every couple of steps, too. He can go prone, roll, etc, every 2-3 seconds, and indeed, is TAUGHT to do so in basic infantry training. He can normally find cover every 3-4 seconds (ie, every 100 ft) or less, too. Such a man is NOT "hittable", except by pure luck, at more than 200 meters, by anyone with any rifle. So much for having stationary, fully exposed torsos to shoot at, once the enemy is aware of your presence.
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
308 starts at 2800 fps, is down to

about 2300 fps at 200m (if it's boattailed ball ammo) plain based sp's will be slower yet. 200m is 220 yds, 660 ft. The average velocity of the 308, over that 660 ft covered, is going to be 2500 or so fps. so the bullet's flight time is 1/4 second. If a guy is running sideways to you, he's a 9" wide target. If he's covering 25 fps, you need 6 ft of "forward allowance" to hit him. What does THAT look like in the sights, hmm? :) If he's moving towards you,j(at a 45 degree angle, as in dodging) you only need half as much "lead", 3ft in other words. What does THAT look like in the sights? He can change directions every .5 second, so if you can't RELIABLY hit a 3/4 (of frontal) sized target, every .50 second, with your rifle, STATIONARY, you have no HOPE of hitting a dodging man at such ranges, except by luck. Say that the guy is moving at 20 or 30 fps. That changes the required lead enough to cause a miss. You do NOT group as well, on a camoed man target as you do on a bullseye. You do NOT group as well, extreme rapid fire, as you do slowfire. you do NOT group as well, on a mover, as you do on a stationary target. MOst of the time, if you go prone, you can't fire effectively, because vegetation, the lay of the land, wont let you. Other firing positions aren't nearly as steady as is prone, especially with bipod. That is why I say that you cant do better than 50% hits on a dodging man at 200m. All you CAN do is guess at the required lead, and fire a lot. Yes, you will hit SOME, but you will miss a lot. That all takes time, and his buddies are getting closer, firing, making you duck, and miss. This is all assuming that the enemy is stupid enough to attack in the open, in daylight. At night, you dont do nearly as well, even if you DO have NVD sights, or launch flares.
 

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Get used to it. He does this on every single board.

According to him, nobody can hit moving targets.

never mind that people do it every day.

Oh, and any caliber other than .223 with a suppressor and you'll miss because you will flinch.

I guess all those follow up shots on running game where I hit were just flukes...


this military doesn't know what it's doing when it trains people to do this.

Oh well.
 

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I"ve got $5000, to your $500, that you

can't produce ANY man, any time, who can get 5 hits on a torso target, at 250 yds, out of 10 shots fired, with ANY rifle, any sighting system, any caliber. I will be in the pit, holding a 12"x24" torso over my head, somebody will fire a pistol into the dirt, and I will start moving, at that point your riflemen can start firing. I will pull the target down out of sight (as in the dodger using cover) every 3-4 seconds. You will have 45 seconds of exposure time, because that's all it takes for the guys to CLOSE with you from 250 yds. You will end up eating [bleep], and you KNOW it, which is why you will NOT bet. :)

The military doesn't teach you jack [bleep], sonny, never did, never will. They don't really CARE if you get killed or not. There's more cannon fodder where you came from. All they care about is accomplishing the "mission".
 

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Pure Melvin Gold!
 

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about 2300 fps at 200m (if it's boattailed ball ammo) plain based sp's will be slower yet. 200m is 220 yds, 660 ft. The average velocity of the 308, over that 660 ft covered, is going to be 2500 or so fps. so the bullet's flight time is 1/4 second. If a guy is running sideways to you, he's a 9" wide target. If he's covering 25 fps, you need 6 ft of "forward allowance" to hit him. What does THAT look like in the sights, hmm? :) If he's moving towards you,j(at a 45 degree angle, as in dodging) you only need half as much "lead", 3ft in other words. What does THAT look like in the sights? He can change directions every .5 second, so if you can't RELIABLY hit a 3/4 (of frontal) sized target, every .50 second, with your rifle, STATIONARY, you have no HOPE of hitting a dodging man at such ranges, except by luck. Say that the guy is moving at 20 or 30 fps. That changes the required lead enough to cause a miss. You do NOT group as well, on a camoed man target as you do on a bullseye. You do NOT group as well, extreme rapid fire, as you do slowfire. you do NOT group as well, on a mover, as you do on a stationary target. MOst of the time, if you go prone, you can't fire effectively, because vegetation, the lay of the land, wont let you. Other firing positions aren't nearly as steady as is prone, especially with bipod. That is why I say that you cant do better than 50% hits on a dodging man at 200m. All you CAN do is guess at the required lead, and fire a lot. Yes, you will hit SOME, but you will miss a lot. That all takes time, and his buddies are getting closer, firing, making you duck, and miss. This is all assuming that the enemy is stupid enough to attack in the open, in daylight. At night, you dont do nearly as well, even if you DO have NVD sights, or launch flares.
this is hilarious sh!t, written by a pogue who has never seen the outside of a barrier in a combat zone.

I'm willing to bet his 214 is OTH
 

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But he's thought about this topic a lot. And thinking about a lot it is just as good as doing it.

You know, like lifting weights, running a marathon, or having sex. No difference at all between daydreaming about the activity and actually participating in it.
 
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I"ve got $5000, to your $500, that you

can't produce ANY man, any time, who can get 5 hits on a torso target, at 250 yds, out of 10 shots fired, with ANY rifle, any sighting system, any caliber. I will be in the pit, holding a 12"x24" torso over my head, somebody will fire a pistol into the dirt, and I will start moving, at that point your riflemen can start firing. I will pull the target down out of sight (as in the dodger using cover) every 3-4 seconds. You will have 45 seconds of exposure time, because that's all it takes for the guys to CLOSE with you from 250 yds. You will end up eating [bleep], and you KNOW it, which is why you will NOT bet. :)

The military doesn't teach you jack [bleep], sonny, never did, never will. They don't really CARE if you get killed or not. There's more cannon fodder where you came from. All they care about is accomplishing the "mission".
You won't be in any such pit pussy.
How many times over the last 20years have you crawfished on any shooting challenge?
Or set some totally unrealistic goals, which in my book is the same?
 

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The military doesn't teach you jack [bleep], sonny, never did, never will.
Wow. We were apparently in very different armies. I grew up shooting, on a farm, inherently living what would later come to be called a 'prepper' or 'survivalist' lifestyle; and I still learned stuff even in the plain old infantry.

Or maybe I just paid more attention than you did...
 

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I"ve got $5000, to your $500, that you

can't produce ANY man, any time, who can get 5 hits on a torso target, at 250 yds, out of 10 shots fired, with ANY rifle, any sighting system, any caliber. I will be in the pit, holding a 12"x24" torso over my head, somebody will fire a pistol into the dirt, and I will start moving, at that point your riflemen can start firing. I will pull the target down out of sight (as in the dodger using cover) every 3-4 seconds. You will have 45 seconds of exposure time, because that's all it takes for the guys to CLOSE with you from 250 yds. You will end up eating [bleep], and you KNOW it, which is why you will NOT bet. :)

The military doesn't teach you jack [bleep], sonny, never did, never will. They don't really CARE if you get killed or not. There's more cannon fodder where you came from. All they care about is accomplishing the "mission".
Bullshit on the 45 seconds, unless they are running across open ground directly at you, at which point they die .

so you will be moving towards the shooter, as part of this exercise, to simulate the closing of the men rushing him? If not, then you are not setting up a realistic simulation. Also, every second you are "down", you aren't moving forward, so the time should increase by that amount. Or are you trying to make it a bullshit exercise? (this is most likely the truth)

And, if you want to be realistic, any fatal shots should end the exercise. i.e.: if the first shot is a head shot or a COM shot, it's over. That is called realism.

An aimed shot is not pure luck. To claim otherwise is a complete lack of understanding what is or is not random. Hitting where you are aiming is not a random event. Peripheral hits would be missed shots as they did not hit the point of aim.

Fatal shots on target are aimed shots. COM hits are aimed. This is by definition. CEP on center mass is acceptable at 250 yards (decreasing as they approach)

And you're 100% full of shit about the military not caring. They invest millions training troops and spend multiple millions on rescues and first aid, which they would not do if they didn't care.

Of course, I could see them not caring about you.

It's all moot, as you don't have $5k
 

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I"ve got $5000, to your $500, that you

can't produce ANY man, any time, who can get 5 hits on a torso target, at 250 yds, out of 10 shots fired, with ANY rifle, any sighting system, any caliber. I will be in the pit, holding a 12"x24" torso over my head, somebody will fire a pistol into the dirt, and I will start moving, at that point your riflemen can start firing. I will pull the target down out of sight (as in the dodger using cover) every 3-4 seconds. You will have 45 seconds of exposure time, because that's all it takes for the guys to CLOSE with you from 250 yds. You will end up eating [bleep], and you KNOW it, which is why you will NOT bet. :)

The military doesn't teach you jack [bleep], sonny, never did, never will. They don't really CARE if you get killed or not. There's more cannon fodder where you came from. All they care about is accomplishing the "mission".
Spoken like a true, bitter draftee. "I'll show my contempt by refusing to pay attention to anything and therefore it's the Army's fault that I didn't learn anything and got my ass blown off." For not caring if you live or die they sure spent a lot of money on training you to survive on the battle field if you would listen and learn. I hated this cry baby crap. For God's sake suck it up and be a Man. I learned a Hell of a lot in training because I paid attention knowing it was my Ass that was going to be on the line. Just a bitter old convict venting.
 
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