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Discussion Starter #1
Military snipers and their rifles have always fascinated me. German = KAR98; Russian = M1891 Nagant; British = 303 Enfield; US = M1C & M1D Garand along with the 1903A4 Springfield; Japs = some kind of scoped Arisaka. Later came the Russian and Chinese Dragunev.

All of these rifles are highly desirable and equally expensive. The cheapest I've seen is the put together 1891 Nagants with the PU scope. They run around $600.00+ when you can find one.

I'm wondering if any of you have such a rifle or if you have any interest in them. I want any of the above but they're out of my price range right now. But -- if I could pick up the parts at a good price I would be tempted to make up my own version of an "Enemy at the Gates" Russian sniper.

What do you guys think?

RIKA
 

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Well, I like preserving history, and will probably step on a lot of toes with this, but DO NOT "make" your own vintage sniper. Buy the real deal. The REAL PU snipers for for around $700. the InterOrdnance fakes run about $400. Get the real deal and please don't bubba a regular 91/30.

The vintage snipers are very interesting to me, especailly when you look at the really crappy (by our standars) glass they used, and the kills they got at some amazing ranges, again considering the crap optics.
 

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It is getting harder to find an authentic service sniper rifle everywhere these days. Up here a Lee Enfield #4 Mk 1(T) can easily set you back $2,500.00 same as a M1C or M1D. The time to collect was 30 years ago!
 

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Unless you have real bucks, the Mosin Nagant PE sniper (about $650) or PU ($700-$750) sniper are about the only way to go, while they are still out there (although they made over 500,000 of them, the supply is dwindling).
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I won't bubba the rifle. That was just my greedy self talking out loud. Just take a few crappy jobs that nobody else wants and I can probably get one (if something doesn't come along to suck up the money).

I crave the KAR98 that the Major had but thats a $3000 rifle now.

Thanks for the pics Garand. I saved them in my album.

RIKA
 

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If I was looking for that type of rifle I would go for an M1A1 type and deck it out with a 'scope M-21 style. It would be pricey. If I was going to go for cheap I would do a Yugoslavian M48A, and have it drilled and tapped and mount a 3X9 Bushnell 'scope on it. In the middle would be the Dragunov Russian 7.62X54 for around $700.00 after paying taxes and bottle deposit. "Enemy At The Gates" aside, I enjoy the Mosin-Nagant as a batlle rifle, but I don't think it has the intrinsic accuracy of the other three, just my opinion. The M1A1 is very,very accurate. So is the the M48A, but it's ammunition sensitive. From what I have read, (I have never fired one), the Dragunov isn't in the same class as the M1A1, but is sufficient for sniping out to 600 Meters. M1 Garands in several different grades are available through the Civilian Marksmanship Program, not very tough to qualify for, but again your looking at $400.00 to $1050.00. (Rack Grade to Premium Grade). Anyway, have fun with making your decision. A SMLE with a 'scope looks, well, wrong. I have my own ideas about looks, there not alway's right. :)
 

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Terry, the Lee Enfield #4 Mk 1 (T) is a thing of beauty if any thing is. I have a close friend who owns one, its sculptured craftsmanship is something to behold!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Terry, you lost me on the designation M1A1. Are you speaking of the M1A fitted out with the really good scope and mount? I have one of those and absolutely love it - ARMS mount and the Leupold Mil Dot.

RIKA
 

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Better to collect sniper skills than sniper rifles IMHO, the rifles are cheap the skills are expensive. With the skills just about any decent bolt action hunting rifle with a modern scope can serve as well or better than any rifle that was issued in WWII, Korea ect. right up though Veitnam to the point the M40 was put on line.

Collecting has it's own rewards but developing skill isn't one of them.

Teuf,
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Teuf, I will agree that skills are vital and that there is no substitute. The old sniper rifles are a part of history that are rapidly disappearing though. They are something that we can pass on to our children and grandchildren for them to hold and cherish. Certainly not as important as the immediately useful riflery skills that they can practically use today but they are an important part of history that should be preserved. Don't you think that they both can co-exist together?

My thoughts.

RIKA
 

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Terry, I've been told by those who own both Dragunovs (not the Romak, the real deal) and PU snipers, that the PU, on average, was a tad more accurate than the Dragunov. 'Course the Drag has to take the cake for a rifle that just looks, well, MEAN.

Teuf: depends on whether you want to collect historical pieces or if you want to snipe. Since I really don't have anywhere to (legally) practice at more than about 500 yards, "real sniper" skills won't be something I can acquire until I finally make the move to more open lands, and a modern weapon confirgured as such would be a waste for me right now.

I DO have a Winchester Stealth (26" heavy barrel .308), with a Leupold Mil-Dot on top. It shoots really well, IMHO, to 500, any idea on how well they shoot at long range?
Other question would be what do you think of the SA M1As witht he cast receivers? Are they any good?
 

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Garand said:
Terry, the Lee Enfield #4 Mk 1 (T) is a thing of beauty if any thing is. I have a close friend who owns one, its sculptured craftsmanship is something to behold!
I'm sure your right Garand. I just look at my MKIII's and can't imagine them with a 'scope. Just my quirk.
 

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Raider said:
Terry, you lost me on the designation M1A1. Are you speaking of the M1A fitted out with the really good scope and mount? I have one of those and absolutely love it - ARMS mount and the Leupold Mil Dot.

RIKA
RIKA, your right and I'm wrong. I don't know where that M1A1 came from. My fingers getting in front of my brain? SOG just sent a flyer out offering Russian Dragunov's w/scope for $629.96, $529.00 w/out scope. A workable option if you wanted to glass it yourself. By the way, if you have an M1A scoped out rifle, why would you mess with this other stuff? Or are you like me, "My minds made up on what I want, don't confuse me with facts."
 

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Your right Rika and I agree, the old sniper rifles are an important part of the citizen/soldier tradition, but it's not often the skills and the rifles exist in the same hands. For most folks they are going to get one or the other.

I personally think the time for goofing around is coming to and end, everything I spend my money on is the current best available. "One is none" when trouble comes, everyone in your family/group needs at least two sets of fighting gear, AR/W ACOG, M1A, LR boltguns, handgun, ammo, spare parts/mags, full kit ect. When the SHTF we aren't fielding with Mosin Nagants and Enfields.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but it's just been my experiene that most "collectors" have a safe full of rifles, but don't know how to dope a 3/4 value wind at 400, front sight range or even properly battle sight zero.

That kind of experience comes from wearing out rifles not collecting them. I wish the hell we lived in a world where I didn't have to think that way, but you can wish with one hand and shit in the other and note which fills up first.

Teuf,
 

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I did some sniping in Korea wih a 1903A4 Springfield I scrounged from the local infantry regiment's stores. It was better than a rifle with no scope at all, but its optics limilted its performance. The story of Army and Marine sniping in Korea was a sad one, Not the fault of the troops but caused by the poor decsions of the generals immediately after World War Two.
 

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Magnum88C said:
Well, I like preserving history, and will probably step on a lot of toes with this, but DO NOT "make" your own vintage sniper. Buy the real deal. The REAL PU snipers for for around $700. the InterOrdnance fakes run about $400. Get the real deal and please don't bubba a regular 91/30.

The vintage snipers are very interesting to me, especailly when you look at the really crappy (by our standars) glass they used, and the kills they got at some amazing ranges, again considering the crap optics.
i knew a fellow[i think he moved to new mexico?] who was a 'big-time w.w.II'
collector[i met him through the 'long island' friend] he had a german G-43
sniper rig that was pretty cool, but the more i found out about these 'guys'
the screwier/weirder it got,like 'they' had gotten a hold of 'nazis' stamping tools/proofmarks crap[the long island connection,ha!] and were making there 'own originals' on shit, and blowing them downstream at gun shows for big money,[i guess, mear speculation, on my end]
i'll shut up![for now]



:wavey:
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Terry G said:
By the way, if you have an M1A scoped out rifle, why would you mess with this other stuff? Or are you like me, "My minds made up on what I want, don't confuse me with facts."
Terry, I am a lover and collector of history and old firearms are my niche. Taking an old Springfield or Garand to the range and just shooting it a little brings me closer to my warrior forefathers. Perhaps if the world doesn't go all to hell I can have a nice collection by the time I reach 50 years. Who knows what fortune brings.

RIKA
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Teufelhund said:
it's just been my experiene that most "collectors" have a safe full of rifles, but don't know how to dope a 3/4 value wind at 400, front sight range or even properly battle sight zero.

That kind of experience comes from wearing out rifles not collecting them. I wish the hell we lived in a world where I didn't have to think that way, but you can wish with one hand and shit in the other and note which fills up first.

Teuf,
You're right about "most" collectors - at least the ones I know. I'm working very hard to hone my rifleman's skills and have finally gained limited access to a 1000 yard range. Unlike yourself, I can't go out in the back yard and practice whenever I want to but must drive many miles to the range. Then, of course, work gets in the way too. This is true of most of us. (Not being critical of you - I envy your lifestyle - but just stating facts and I'm happy for you). Anyway, I shoot when I can and am learning to call my shots with both optics and iron sights and I don't flinch (maybe once in awhile :D ). I'm lucky in that I have good gear and more importantly wise counsel from men both here on this board and others who really know their stuff. I'm really grateful for that.

One of these days our pretty little world and soft life is going to get hard and ugly. I want me and mine to survive. Thats the reason we're here, right?

RIKA
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Magnum88C said:
Other question would be what do you think of the SA M1As witht he cast receivers? Are they any good?
Magnum, I'm not Terry but perhaps I can help. I have a SA M1A made in 1989-90 with the cast receiver and its a dandy rifle with all GI parts. However, I'm told that the new made Springys are not so good - have a lot of crappy cast parts and the quality control is spotty-poor at best. There have been numerous complaints about SA's Garands and they are considered to be sh!t.

Fulton Armory has a reputation for making really good M1As and I understand they use mostly GI parts. Thats what I'd buy over the counter if I had it to do over again.

The best M1A, I'm told, is the Chinese M1A. It has a forged receiver. Many riflemen have fitted that receiver out with a GI barrel and GI internals and swear that they have the best rifle around.

Hope that helps.

RIKA
 
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