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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
worth a hoot for stopping men with handguns. The .45 is just the benefactor of a LOT of lies about same. The 223 softpoint has the same momentum as does the .45 ACP round, but testing on animals shows that .45 ball wont reliably stop a groundhog with a chest hit, while the 223 sp will quite reliably bowl over 60+lb feral dogs, and they are nearly always unable to regain their feet after taking such a hit. Such a load blows chucks wide open. There is no chance whatsoever that they do anything after taking a solid hit with the 223 sp.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
what can't u figure out, hmm?

We CAN match 223 rifle sorts of impacts with a belt pistol, you know. With a 20" barrel, the remaining velocity of a 70 gr Speer Sp 223 handload is about 2400 fps at 100m or so, if it was loaded up real hot. It might well be only 2500 fps at 50m, if the reload was not well-developed and tested. Such 223 hand- loads are well known to work as "well" as do 170 gr 30-30- sp;s, on small deer, feral dogs, etc. That is, not great, but a HELLUVA lot better than do 230 gr .45 jhp's, that's for sure.

A .45 has 4x the frontal area of a 223. For the mathematically challenged, remember "Pi r squared? To calculate the frontal area of a bullet, you have to calculate the area of the circle formed by its diameter. twice the diameter means 4x the area, because the radius is squared, then multiplied x 3.14. ("pi") Frontal area DOES have some saluatory effect at impact, particularly with a prefragmented bullet. So, since the 460 Rowland can handily get 70 grs to 2300 fps in a 4" barrel, these sorts of velocities, (ie, well known 223 sp rifle performance on critters) CAN be had from a belt pistol. An alloy framed, compact, controlable belt pistol, too.
 

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Actually, momentum plays a huge role:

When a bullet passes through tissue, the tissue stays close to the surface of the bullet for a short ways, then it begins to separate. The tissue separates from the bullet surface after the bullet has imparted enough outward, or radial, momentum (there's that word again) to the tissue.

Watch a boat as it moves quickly and you will see the water thrown by the bow away from the boat. The boat moves forward, but the water is tossed to the side. The boat has imparted momentum to the water (technically it's a change in the momentum of the water). The same thing happens with bullets and tissue.

Here's why this momentum is important...The radial momentum given to the tissue by the bullet makes the temporary cavity. For a given tissue, the size of the temporary cavity depends on the bullet's energy, area and shape.

Put in simple terms, in tissue a non-expanding bullet will be at it's best with a wadcutter shape.
 

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ok, here goes, momentum when talking about the energy a bullet develops has many uses, merely duplicating velocity to acheive similar numbers isn't anything. Bullet design, target composition, energy transfer rates, energy absorbtion rates, and so on determine a lot. And anytime you feel like you can equal my M16 with your pistol just say so. I'll meet you on any footabll field you want.
 

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jamullins,

You're right that normal sized pistols are not going to equal M16 rifles anytime soon. Interestingly, the .223 (5.56mm) is generally considered by arms designers to be comparable to the 9x19mm from a wound standpoint within 300-400m. That is to say that the .223 FMJ is assumed to always create a wound at least equal to a 9mm NATO FMJ.

The paradox of pistols is that convenient size and effectiveness are opposites. Even if you do develop a compact handgun/cartridge that is similar in performance to a rifle, the chamber pressure has to remain safe anywhere that it may be used. It must also not wear out the pistol too fast.
 

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Another one of GunKids standard posts. He has never seen anyone shot with a .45ACP automatic so his views on the subjecy are worthless.
 

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A .45 TO THE CHEST WON'T KILL A GROUND HOG?????? YOU GOT SOME REALLY TOUGH GROUND HOGS IN YOUR NECK OF THE WOODS!! ARE YOU USING A GUN OR JUST THROWING THE SLUGS AT EM??
 

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I can tell you that the most important aspect of a bullet is momentum. Because momentum causes cavitation which transmits into "stopping power" and overall tissue damage done by the round.

Now how do I figure this??? Well by the 5 plus years working as a paramedic and the 10+ years in Law Enforcement. I have had more training on firearms and ballistics and the damage done by them than I care to think about.
 

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So, what bullet shape, design is optimum for stopping power?

There always seem to be tradeoffs. Too light and too fast and the bullet explodes before reaching vital organs to stop the assailant. Round nose bullets tend to push tissue out of the way but will generally penetrate further. Sometimes TOO far, but maybe a hole going in and a hole going out is not that bad of a thing either.

Energy (velocity) is not the only criteria, otherwise those photons moving at the speed of light hitting us every day would be a real problem to deal with. Mass has got to be fit into the equation as well.

Energy is wasted on a bullet that passes completely through a body, but how much is not enough? No one is going to complain about too much energy when their life is on the line! I am sure we would all like to have that ammunition they use in the movies that causes the bad guy to fly across the room backwards when hit, but in real life we have to deal with real physics.

Is a fragmenting round good fight stopper? Or will this fragment on a leather jacket and do no real damage to the bad guy? Yet someone just wearing a greasy T-shirt it would work just fine on?

Man, ther are just so many bullet designs available....... fire/law, in your experience, which bullet DESIGN seemed the most CAPABLE when used as a self defense round? In your opinion?
 

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Rich,

In my personal experience a correctly placed round bigger than a .22 can kill you no matter what. And I am not talking about "head shots". A .38 in the upper left chest can cut you Aotric Artery in half and you bleed to death in about a minute or so. I have been in 2 Officer involved shooting in my career and I can say 6 rounds of 45ACP put that scum sucker on the ground and he never got back up under his own power. The last I saw him he was being zipped up in a bag. The other instance was a 12ga so it has no real bearing on this subject.

I personally use hollowpoints or flat tip rounds. But like I said a a well placed round no matter what is what really counts. Like I said this is my personal opininon and experience.
 

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Sometimes I guess I just have to wonder if all the different styles, weights, etc. of bullet types is just marketing and not anything at all to do with terminal effects. How much difference is there really between a 9mm bullet that weighs 115 grains and one that ways 125 grains. Has anyone weighed 10 grains of lead to see how much material this really is?

Or is there really that much difference, in practicality, between a bullet going 1100 fps and one going 1300 fps?

For a while, I had the hots to get a 25-06, but for some reason looked into the reloading charts for this cartridge before buying a rifle in that caliber. Hmmm. Ballistics was pretty darned close to that of a .243 in the same weight projectiles. Push come to shove, I couldn't convince myself to buy into yet another caliber rifle.

Guns are just bullet throwers. Does it really matter all that much on the recipient's end if that bullet is 125 grains and .357 diameter at 1400 fps, 135 grains and .40 diameter at 1200 fps, or 230 grains and .45 diameter at 850 fps?

Heck, if someone THREW a bullet at me, it would hurt when it hit me! So I guess this is what needs to be kept in mind: A gun only throws a piece of lead (or copper clad lead) and various sizes, styles, weights and velocities. Couple those variables with where it will hit on the recipient, angle of entry, obstructions (clothing), mental state, etc., etc., and it becomes pretty obvious that each bullet firing is pretty much a unique event. There can be NO predictability of the exact results you will get at all.

One stop shot? Well, maybe. But don't count on it when your life is on the line. Empty the gun into a bad guy? Well suppose there is ANOTHER one hiding around the corner. Then what? All I can say is that I am glad I don't have to do what LEO's do for a living day in and day out. Although shooting incidents are thankfully rare, each one would likely be a nightmare unfolding.
 

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Dear Mr. Unreistered,

Please pull your head out when you get up from the PC and go and load your 45ACP. Next load your .223. Walk outside and first shoot yourself in the chest with the 45. Next shoot yourself with the .223. Then please log back onto armslocker and tell us witch round had the most power.

Sorry Rich for this post........just had to say it!

"ANY DAY ABOVE GROUND IS A GOOD ONE!!"

Nick
 

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Rich,

You have just posted one of the big "Truths" about guns. As long as you hit your intended target that is what matter. Their are so many varibles to consider in a life or death shooting situation that whether my .38 Special +P+, or the 9mm, 45ACP, .40 S&W or what ever you are carring is the last thought. All you really worry about is, when I hit my target ...will he go down and stay down??

You can train your entire life for that few seconds that you need to draw down on someone and make the decision. Do I Shoot or Not? Because shooting at a paper target and shooting at a person are to drastically different things and that is a thing your mind must deal with.

Take Care All
 

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:rolleyes: Personally, I don't think that any of the popular equations adequately describe the phenomenon of, 'bullet stopping power'. Mass and velocity are certainly involved; and, of the two, velocity seems to hold greater significance. The reason I say this is because of the fact that it is obvious to me a 230grn 45acp slug will NOT hit as effectively as any 150grn 30 caliber rifle round – of whatever bullet configuration!

Two real world object lessons come to mind: The first is those films of Russian snipers shooting German soldiers during the Second World War. In the several examples I've seen, all of the Germans went immediately to their knees or face down upon being struck. Personally, I doubt that this would have happened with any single WWII pistol round. The second lesson involves those, 'tumbling' AK-47 rifle rounds used by the Russians in Afghanistan - Even our ballistic experts were impressed with the results!

(Let’s remember that it's not, really, appropriate to include a weapon like a German MP-40 Schmeisser or any other pistol caliber, 'sub-gun' in this discussion.)

These things said, the old axioms continue to ring true: 'Never bring a pistol to a rifle fight!' and, 'Keep firing (your handgun) until the target goes down!' IMO, a pistol - any, 'semi' pistol with a barrel shorter than 12 inches - is an expedient and should be properly regarded by a savvy gunman as primarily a defensive weapon.

Is this opinion perfect? Certainly not! A lot more could be said. I will, however, emphatically state; 'You'll probably survive a lot more gunfights, and live a whole lot longer if you heed this advice – I trust this point to suffice! ;)
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
why do all the inepts just automatically

ASSUME that when a proven world class combat pistol shottist, handgun hunter with hundreds of kills, master gunsmith, etc, seeks real power in his pistol, he's just AUTOMATICALLY as lame and ignnorant as THEY are? :)
 

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Well, I have real life experience, if anyone’s interested. I have 5 kills with the M16, (.223 military ball ammo) Hit the first guy 4 times in the chest, 1 was a heart shot. Can you guess what happened then? He dropped to one knee and returned fire. He had no vest, just his shirt. 2 of the 4 rounds had exit wounds not much larger than the entrances. Same in all the cases. Can’t say what damage was done on the inside, or by the bullets that did not exit (I think they would have frowned on me doing my own autopsy) But none were “knocked down” only one died instantly with a shot to the head, still took him a good 3 seconds to slow drop to his knees and then fall forward.

It ain’t like in the movies… and what this experience did for me was tell me I wand a big ass honcken bullet that opens up as much as possible. But even with that, I’d still expect return fire.
 

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if the head shot=solid hit, I call u a liar

cause it would have popped his entire gourd, same as it blows up a gallon can full of water, and his head would have bounced off of the ground in less than a second. If it was not a solid hit, then 308 is unlikely to have done any better.
 

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if the head shot=solid hit, I call u a liar

cause it would have popped his entire gourd, same as it blows up a gallon can full of water, and his head would have bounced off of the ground in less than a second. If it was not a solid hit, then 308 is unlikely to have done any better.
This is how I know you've never seen or been in combat. Dead people don't always instantly drop, even though they are dead. Some do a slow-mo collapse - even with the top half of their head gone. You have no business calling anyone anything other than "Sir" that has seen combat.
 

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why do all the inepts just automatically

ASSUME that when a proven world class combat pistol shottist, handgun hunter with hundreds of kills, master gunsmith, etc, seeks real power in his pistol, he's just AUTOMATICALLY as lame and ignnorant as THEY are? :)
ROFLMAO! See the washed up never was been never changed.

Same mix of chest beating, bitching, moaning and coat tail riding.

Melvin is to IPSC what Colin Kaepernick is to the NFL.
Except for the IPSC not wanting him around.🤪
 
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