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Discussion Starter #1
over .270 BC, that groups 1" at 100 yds, and WONT group 10" at 300 yds, dumbass. Only idiots think a shorty AR aint PLENTY capable of hitting men at 400m, or that such hits don't make the "hittee" no longer combat-effective.
 

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A dead man is no longer combat effective, a wounded man with a functional trigger finger is still a viable threat to your life.
 

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Here's the deal. It isn't that the 10" AR CAN'T hit at that range (although it's accuracy is severely degraded by, among other things, the huge amount of unburnt powder, gasses, etc expelled two FEET from the muzzle. No, the "can" isn't going to completely abate the problem) it's the fact that the impact velocity of the projectile is too low for fragmentation, making it MUCH less effective than the same projectile fired from a real barrel.

You can alleviate SOME of this problem by using bullets, typically varmint bullets, that expand explosively when fired from a normal barrel, will still give you some expansion even at the low velocities from the 10" barrel.

However, the proponent of the 10" barrel here, also wants to carry only 3 magazines, loaded two short, for 84 rounds TOTAL .223. When you run out, you have to get some from somewhere else. Since this is touted in the context of the total armageddon scenario, you won't be going into the gun shop to buy more. Your most likely resupply will be from other carriers of this type of weapon (again, in the only scenario the proponent of this system considers). Your most likely round encountered would be the military issue FMJ loaded with the SS-109 projectile. Either from government sanctioned carriers, or those who like to fill their closets with whatever the military uses. Problem is, this round has been proven to be a ballistic turd from teh 10" barrel, giving maybe 45 meters of effective range.

For ballistics reasons (ESPECIALLY terminal ballistics), those who want to carry a .22 caliber rifle for their protection are much better off with a rifle of 16"-20" barrel length, to maximize the range at which they get the best terminal effects.

Putting tiny little holes in paper at long range proves a rifle can hit at that range, not that the projectiles will be effective at that range.
 

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Magnum88C said:
However, the proponent of the 10" barrel here, also wants to carry only 3 magazines, loaded two short, for 84 rounds TOTAL .223.
It gets even worse among those 84 rounds the 10"car guy only has 14 rounds of his magic 69gr load. It's extra special magic because it's lost 200fps somewhere, it used to be a 2700fps load in an 11" barrel but now it's 2500fps in a 10" barrel.


Mostly 64 gr sp's, but a 14 rds each of 62 gr steel tipped ball, 69 gr hpbt match bullets, and 55 gr tracers.
On 12-26-2003
and yes, you CAN get the 69 gr bullet to 2700 fps in an 11" barrel, too. :)
01-14-2004
that the same barrel will get a 69 gr hpbt to 2700 fps
so in less than 10 months he's lost an inch and 200fps.

Wait hold the presses, it was also 2800fps in an 11" barrel!
01-06-2004
I only said 2800 fps in 11"
Dude just can't stick with a lie.
07-22-2003
27.5 grs AA2520= 60grs, 2800 fps, 11"

barrel 223. Using the Nosler Partition, that makes for a helluva good use of the 1050 ft lbs available with this load. The 69 gr hpbt Sierra can easily be driven over 2650 fps, too, for real accuracy and reach, from such a small, lw carbine.,
Where did the 300fps go?
 

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COMBAT EFFECTIVE my ____

andy said:
or that such hits don't make the "hittee" no longer combat-effective.

as a member of the armed forces that has returned from iraq, twice trust me if the man is not dead on the ground then he is still "combat effective"
 

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Discussion Starter #6
bs, only if you are stupid enough to run up on him.

At the ranges that a 223 sp hit to the chest WONT put the guy on his ass, he's INCAPABLE of harming you. Military ball ammo SUCKS for the job of stoppingmen, regardless of range or caliber.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
This stupid sort of crap is EXACTLY why the military way has NOTHING to do with the civilian survivalist's way of doing things. WHY would I have to run up on a guy that I popped at 300m, hmm? what's he got that I just HAVE to have, within the next 30 seconds? NOTHING. In fact,only rarely will there be any reason to not let him lay there all NIGHT, and watch the birds pecking out his eyes, before going up and stripping his body of whatever gear you want/need. Certainly, there's no reason not to stop at 50m, using cover or prone, and carefully put a silent,subsonic .22 into his skull, before actually approaching him. Ditto no reason not to have the silenced .22 pistol in one hand, and the canned CAR-223 in the other hand, when you get up within 15 ft, again go prone and again hit him in the back of the head (if you didnt SEE a hole in his head, from the 50m shot, that is, thru your scope.) You have to tie a cord onto his arm, back off 10m, go prone and yank him around a bit, before moving him any other way, anyhow, or get the grenade surprise. Ideally of course, you do the 50m head shot a bit before dusk, then scout a perimeter, then approach his body. His buddies would love to use his carcass as bait to ambush you.
 

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55 grain bullet .223 M193 ammunition is superior to soft points at almost all ranges particularly from a 10 or 11 inch barrel. Try to learn a little bit aboit terminal ballistics before making posts like this.
 

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Personally, you have not demonstrated the patience to wait long enough for the birds to start eating off a "corpse". Lack of patience and the understanding the capability of your rifle, will get you killed if the balloon ever goes up.
 

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Gunkid you are sadly lacking of understanding that an 11" POSCAR just starts out way to low in velocity. It isn't all that much better than a .22 Hornet. And if you are going to use pet loads then everybody else can use pet loads to which some can make the AK much better, or the M1A/M1Garand real hell raisers. Even the M1 Carbine can be loaded up some if you go to handloads. So BFD.

You are starting out with a Volkswagon in a big speed race. Bad choice.

In any SHTF, just like Garand, HB, and most other posters here say, you won't have your loading press, nor stores, not anything but what you either started out with, barter, or find (if you murder, you will be ran down, sooner or later.) And even if you do strip some dead bodies, they won't have your pet loads either.

Get with it and understand whatever you use will have to be able to fit the most common weapons or gear as that will be the only replacements.
 

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ghostrider said:
TELL THAT TO THE FOUR FRIENDS THAT I WATCHED DIE TO RAGS THAT WERE "INCAPABLE OF HARMING YOU" YOU IDIOTIC F__K!!
Logic, reason, and facts are lost on him. Anything that contradicts his "facts" are lies. He is never wrong about anything, even when he contradicts himself.

Dude, losing friends sucks. Don't let the idiotic rantings of a small mind dirty their sacrifice.

My hat is off to you and to your fallen friends.

Fight the good fight, live the good life. Stand tall, ride strong.

I will raise a glass tonight in your and their honor.

:devil:
 

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my appologies to the forum for my last post i just get to emotional about some things
and when some s--thead comes along and says something stupid i go off
again my appologies
 

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my appologies to the forum for my last post i just get to emotional about some things
and when some s--thead comes along and says something stupid i go off
again my appologies
He is a total ass when it comes to the military or combat. He is an embarrassment to the uniform he claims to have worn. He is so woefully ignorant of reality - he has not been there, he has not done that, he has no clue about what he spouts off about. He is incapable of any shots beyond pistol range, so he doesn't understand that threats exist at that range and beyond. His fantasy requires that everyone be as bad as him, as frail as him, and less intelligent than he is - which means they have trouble breathing on their own.
 

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It's been roughly 6-8 years so I might be in error but in the Warrior Talk website that I also frequent their was a discuss if some barrels, complete uppers and rifles err pistols being offered by the site owners company Suarez International.
What was the topic was the barrels from White Oak Armament in the 10-1/2" length for the MK18 Short barrel rifle used by some parts of SOCOM and the use of these particular barrels in some of them.
The accuracy requirement was for the ability to reliably hit the enemy at 300 meters no further.
NOTE: That's with a true match/target grade barrel. AND Used by the best of the best the USA has to offer.
Not well you know who.🙄. Aka Mediocrities.

Once in a blue moon with me using the pistol brace of my MK18 Wannabe to it's fullest potential I'll get around a 1" or hair more group at 100yds. But that's ideal conditions not combat. And with the scope cranked up to 4x. I don't particularly care for the optic plus flip to side magnifier rig.
I went instead with a Leupold Mk AR model of 1 5-4x range with an illuminated center dot. Also the barrel is a chrome lined Green Mountain brand and not too bad for what it is even had the nub/rivet or whatever the proper name to keep the extractor from slipping off the rim of the case.
Since as I age I'm more low speed high drag and not into doing timed splits.
In fact if I snag the magnifcation optic on something I maybe doing the splits and hitting the ground in an unplanned move. 😆 So if I lose something between a 1x and 1.5x so be it.
 
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