no CLUE about handguns, momentum,
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of course it doesn't, to some ignoramus
but it sure does to anyone who KNOWS anything. You "think" that just because a hit with aheavy .45 Colt load will EVENTUALLY result in an anima''s being bled out (10 seconds or more) means it's an effective manstopper.
Hey dummy, when a man's trying to kill you, anything beyond 1 second, in the way of an "instant" stop is pretty worthless (at handgun ranges) what's needed is something to make his arms fall to his sides, or freeze in place, in 1/4 second or less. The 223 sp has MANY times proven its ability to do this, at LEAST as often as does a blast of 00 buckshot. Yes, 223 sp can fail, so can 00, but it's a 1 in 50-1 in 100 RARITY, not a 1 in 3 commonplace event like .45 ball's failure(assuming chest hits with all of these loads)
So I set out to find-create a load that would be as controlable in an alloy, compact ccw gun, as .45 ball is, with as close to 223 softpoint (in a RIFLE) type performance, (on flesh and blood) as was possible to attain. After much searching, I hit upon the 460 Rowland case, the 3 segment Split Nose" prefrag hollowpoint, with its huge, deep hollowbase. 70 grs, 2300 fps, in a 4" barrel, and it enables one to get .18 second splits, or faster, just like .45 ball ammo does, in such a gun (ie, 28 oz lw Commander). It has 800 ft lbs, transers it ALL in 8-
10" of flesh, and it rarely fails to penetrate deeply enough, and has yet to fail to create 3 separte wound channels, in the shooting of many animals with it. It has the same effect on large dogs as does a shorty 223 at 50m,or a 20" 223 at 100m or so. That is, they are knocked on their butts, and can't regain their feet, and they die in a very few seconds.
Given the "cumlative overload" of tissue destruction and shock, and the ability of a skilled, "cold" man to put 3 such rds on the chest of a man in .50 second, I'd say that they are as likely to suffice as is a blast of 00 buck, and one such hit is a LOT more likely to suffice than is any 250 gr swc .45, at 1000 fps.
but it sure does to anyone who KNOWS anything. You "think" that just because a hit with aheavy .45 Colt load will EVENTUALLY result in an anima''s being bled out (10 seconds or more) means it's an effective manstopper.
Hey dummy, when a man's trying to kill you, anything beyond 1 second, in the way of an "instant" stop is pretty worthless (at handgun ranges) what's needed is something to make his arms fall to his sides, or freeze in place, in 1/4 second or less. The 223 sp has MANY times proven its ability to do this, at LEAST as often as does a blast of 00 buckshot. Yes, 223 sp can fail, so can 00, but it's a 1 in 50-1 in 100 RARITY, not a 1 in 3 commonplace event like .45 ball's failure(assuming chest hits with all of these loads)So I set out to find-create a load that would be as controlable in an alloy, compact ccw gun, as .45 ball is, with as close to 223 softpoint (in a RIFLE) type performance, (on flesh and blood) as was possible to attain. After much searching, I hit upon the 460 Rowland case, the 3 segment Split Nose" prefrag hollowpoint, with its huge, deep hollowbase. 70 grs, 2300 fps, in a 4" barrel, and it enables one to get .18 second splits, or faster, just like .45 ball ammo does, in such a gun (ie, 28 oz lw Commander). It has 800 ft lbs, transers it ALL in 8-
10" of flesh, and it rarely fails to penetrate deeply enough, and has yet to fail to create 3 separte wound channels, in the shooting of many animals with it. It has the same effect on large dogs as does a shorty 223 at 50m,or a 20" 223 at 100m or so. That is, they are knocked on their butts, and can't regain their feet, and they die in a very few seconds.
Given the "cumlative overload" of tissue destruction and shock, and the ability of a skilled, "cold" man to put 3 such rds on the chest of a man in .50 second, I'd say that they are as likely to suffice as is a blast of 00 buck, and one such hit is a LOT more likely to suffice than is any 250 gr swc .45, at 1000 fps.
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Where did you get your data? 1-50 to 1-100 failure rarity for .223 and 1-3 failure for the .45?
from personal experience with animals,
studying the literature, talking to NYPD stakeout specialist Jim Cirillo, Delta Force Trainer Ken Hackathorn, Harry Claflin, killer of many hundreds of men in SE Asia, Central America, Cooper, Ayoob, many others.
Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, and Charly Askins had nothing good to say about .45 ball ammo, either, you know. Other than it's being a big better than 9mm ball. Jordan even said 9mm swc's would make better manstoppers than .45 ball does.
You can BELIEVE all the bs war stories about .45 if you like, but the facts are not present to back them up. I believe what I SEE happen, dozens of times, on flesh and blood animals, and buddy, .45 ball SUCKS on such animals, when it comes to stopping them instantly.
studying the literature, talking to NYPD stakeout specialist Jim Cirillo, Delta Force Trainer Ken Hackathorn, Harry Claflin, killer of many hundreds of men in SE Asia, Central America, Cooper, Ayoob, many others.
Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, and Charly Askins had nothing good to say about .45 ball ammo, either, you know. Other than it's being a big better than 9mm ball. Jordan even said 9mm swc's would make better manstoppers than .45 ball does.
You can BELIEVE all the bs war stories about .45 if you like, but the facts are not present to back them up. I believe what I SEE happen, dozens of times, on flesh and blood animals, and buddy, .45 ball SUCKS on such animals, when it comes to stopping them instantly.
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2,020 Posts
Re: from personal experience with animals,
> Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, and Charly Askins had nothing good to say about .45 ball ammo, either, you know. Other than it's being a big better than 9mm ball. Jordan even said 9mm swc's would make better manstoppers than .45 ball does.
Bill Jordan said the 9mm SWC would be a good round IF the 9mm had to be used, but the 9mm ball was NOTHING as compared to the .45ACP. He felt that the .45ACP was about the only good autoloader for police work.
He also felt that a revolver was best. Personall, I agree with him there, but that doesn't matter in this thread.
By the way, nobody here actually belives you've ever had any more contact wit hANY of those guys other than trying to memorize their books. The above proves you didn't even do that to well. Go back and re-read it, THEN come call me a punk, turd, or whatever. Come cuss me again. Heck, profanity IS the last resort of a weak mind, so I'm not surprised when you use it.
KJ
> Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, and Charly Askins had nothing good to say about .45 ball ammo, either, you know. Other than it's being a big better than 9mm ball. Jordan even said 9mm swc's would make better manstoppers than .45 ball does.
Bill Jordan said the 9mm SWC would be a good round IF the 9mm had to be used, but the 9mm ball was NOTHING as compared to the .45ACP. He felt that the .45ACP was about the only good autoloader for police work.
He also felt that a revolver was best. Personall, I agree with him there, but that doesn't matter in this thread.
By the way, nobody here actually belives you've ever had any more contact wit hANY of those guys other than trying to memorize their books. The above proves you didn't even do that to well. Go back and re-read it, THEN come call me a punk, turd, or whatever. Come cuss me again. Heck, profanity IS the last resort of a weak mind, so I'm not surprised when you use it.
KJ
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