[andy]

(scoped, with .22 unit) until you do some hunting with one. Many guys "think" that sonic crack is as loud as is an unsuppressed 22 rifle. Wrong, even with the 223 auto being allowed to function normally, and with full charge 223, the rifle is no louder than breaking a large stick over your knee. With such a can on a bolt action, or with the autoloader's bolt locked shut, the sound is about handclap loud. Naturally, with subsonic 22lrs being used in the 22 unit, the sound is reduced to that of a bb gun. With darkness, stealth, thick cover,such a 20 shot 22lr is very deadly from ambush, and if need be, the 223 sp offers real stopping power, and the ability to quietly take deer, guard dogs, sentries, cattle, etc, to 150m on the deer, or the dog, 250m on the man or the cow.

 

[Clint Boyer]

Seems to me that shooting guard dogs and sentries would be the last thing you'd want to be doing. Unless you're on a recon mission of some type (with back up). Killing the things that are protecting something will most definately draw attention your way. If you're a single man you'd best stay clear of such situations.

 

[andy]

who says I can't handle ALL of them, hmm?

I aint talking about handicapping myself with a bolt action or a shotgun. Inflict 25% casulties, the rest usually flee. Inflict 50% casulties, the rest nearly always flee. A canned autorifle can hit 5 men in 2 seconds, at 50 yds, from the bipod. such can be repeated as necessary, you know.

 

[andy]

I aint about to run, just because there's

a sentry or a guard dog. That just means that there's something present WORTH guarding, and if it's worth guarding, it's worth killing to get, basically.

 

[Clint Boyer]

That's not the point.

You would be foolish to make such advances if servival were your goal. One mistake or even just an overlooked boobie trap could lay you up and even injure you beyond repair. You're no spring chicken at 50+ you know.

 

[bucfan]

Don't seem to combat effective if you have to take a leak every hour.

Nick

 

[andy]

assuming that WAS the timing, just how

would it make you combat ineffective, dummy? You run home crying cause you had to piss your pants, or what? You can run into booby traps any place or time, so what's the diff, hmm? Do you have any CLUEa how many mines, etc, it would take to secure a place, or how much waste of manpower it would be setting them, and how likely you'd be to get shot while doing all that? Of course you don't. That's why you talk such silliness in the first place.

 

[bucfan]

How many men have you killed? Anybody can be trained to hit your IDPA cardboard targets. All the talk you talk about speed don't mean crap if you are not mentally prepared to kill. YOU never have had to and if your great SHTF don't happen in the next 10 yrs or so you will be to worn out to do anything about it. I'll file you under the collum NEVER BEEN THERE NEVER DONE IT.

HOW MANY MEN HAVE YOU KILLED?

NICK

 

[andy]

u wanna be the FIRST, hmm? anyone

who thinks I WONT kill, in a heartbeat,is one stupid punk.

 

[84 C4]

Why do you feel the need to kill anyone? Killing another human being is not something that should be taken lightly, don't you have any respect for life? What is the point of this thread, anyways, to show what a tuff guy you are?

Most of the people here already know how effective a .223 or .22lr is and how they sound, and when it comes to incapacitating other human beings, both are not ideal cartridges. The .223 is causing some concern over seas because the bullet isn't very reliable when it come to neutralizing the threat. This is why the military is looking to replace it. The 6.8 SPC and the 6.5 Grendel are the current front runners.

 

[andy]

Neither one will see much use, count on

that. the guys MISS COMPLETELY with thousands of rds for every hit they get, andmost hits are poor ones All a heavier bullet does is overload the guys, (or mean less ammo carried) and overloads the supply -train. Ball ammo is a poor stopper, in ALL calibers. The 6.5 Grendel has NOTHING on a 68 gr hpbt Sierra, in 223, when it comes to fighing wind or gravity. Just look at the velocity and BC numbers. Anyone can see that a 130 gr bullet, in 6.5m, is going to have a REALLY poor bc, and the start velociity is only going to be 2500 fps in an M4's 14.5" barrel.

 

[andy]

so u "think" combat training AINT about

killing men, or what?

 

[84 C4]

Of those thousands of rounds fired, wouldn't you like the few that hit to do the job required? To me, all a heavier bullet does is kill what you shootin at, regardless of how many misses I'd get, I'd like the one that hits to take the hostile down. .223 just doesn't cut it, just ask the DoD. When it comes to ballistic coefficient, that's largely irrelevant past 300 yds, unless you're a sniper. Especially since much combat now occurs in urban areas.

The lower velocity of the 6.5mm is better, for the most part, it's because it induces less wear on the barrel. The high velocity .223 is much too fast, often slicing through a target whithout him ever noticing it, but hey, that's just me...


Combat Training is about combat training, there's much more to war then gung-ho rambo style shootouts. The military trains its men to follow orders, and if killing a group of people happen to be the order, then they are trained to fulfill their duty. Few people in the military, whether now or 100 years ago, relished the thought of killing other human beings. They did the job because it was their duty, not because they were sadistic sociopaths.

 

[andy]

oh, yeah? tell that to the guys in Iraqui

prisons, in Guantanomo Bay, etc. u r fos, punk. The 223 is PLENTY lethal. The guys cried about the 30 carbine, and many many other loads, too, mostly because when they THOUGHT they were hitting, they were NOT. The 62 gr, steel tipped M855 might be low powered, in the M4. I haven't shot any critters with it yet, but you are fos with your idea about high velocity, ass heavy spitzers "just slipping thru a man". I've seen 2 deer fall to 55 gr 223 ball, from an 11" barrel, both at about 100 yds, before they could run 100m, and one only made it to 50m. 30-30 sp's do no better,a nd MANY a deer has made it to 50 m, after taking a 308 softpoint to the chest, and it's ROUTINE for them to do so after taking a 308 ball hit to the chest. That's why 308 fmj is illegal to use on deer, in nearly every state.

 

[andy]

6mm Lee, slightly more load than Grendel

( I think, aint checked for sure) failed MISERABLY to stop the Moro "juramentados" in the Filipinnes. Anyone who "thinks' Grendel BALL ammo is going to be a great manstopper is delusional or VERY ignorant. Ass heavy 223 spitzers yaw, tumble, and frag in flesh, out to 100m, or so, and make pretty good manstoppers. Sp's are far better. What the miltary does or doesn't do is meaningless, cause you can't change it, reguardless of your squawking. YOU can use softpoints in 223, and they work GREAT, even from very short barrels, to 200m, and to 400m from 20" barrels. Put an 11" barrel on a 308, and it's nothing more than an AK, performance wise.

 

[84 C4]

you're comparing your hunting experiences to combat situations...the two aren't really compatible.

 

[Dorobuta]

Anyone planning to do ambushes with a .22 won’t live very long. Anyone thinking they are going to be very successful conducting ambushes by themselves won’t live very long.

no, a hit from a .22 is not guaranteed to be eventually fatal. Medical knowledge, treatment, etc. does not cease if SHTF. people have survived far worse than a hit from a .22 from the beginning of time.

your fantasies are simply that.

 

[BigBassMan]

Just his burned out mind making noise.Duct tape his mouth an his ass would still be spewing the same shit.

 

[Garand]

.Anyone thinking they are going to be very successful conducting ambushes by themselves won’t live very long.

BINGO!

 

[Dorobuta]

6mm Lee, slightly more load than Grendel

( I think, aint checked for sure) failed MISERABLY to stop the Moro "juramentados" in the Filipinnes. Anyone who "thinks' Grendel BALL ammo is going to be a great manstopper is delusional or VERY ignorant. Ass heavy 223 spitzers yaw, tumble, and frag in flesh, out to 100m, or so, and make pretty good manstoppers. Sp's are far better. What the miltary does or doesn't do is meaningless, cause you can't change it, reguardless of your squawking. YOU can use softpoints in 223, and they work GREAT, even from very short barrels, to 200m, and to 400m from 20" barrels. Put an 11" barrel on a 308, and it's nothing more than an AK, performance wise.

can you point to where anyone said Grendel Ball ammo? You are the only person that claims everyone else will be using ball. BTW, ALL spitzers yaw, it is a question of bullet jacket design whether or not they fragment.

You can use soft points in any rifle caliber, you can use hollow points in any rifle caliber, you can use polymer tipped bullets in any rifle caliber. Why do you ignore this fact? why do you insist that only you will not be using ball ammo?

why does the .308 need an 11" barrel? you have a very rigid and weird set of requirements. Not everyone is as weak or incapable as you appear to be.