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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
and making such a demand of the sidearm is unrealistic in the extreme. It's what causes guys to "think" it's necessary or advisable to have 357, or .44, ferchrissakes.

The 38 wadcutter might as well be a .22, for all it's capable of accomplishing. The .45 ACP easily outperforms a similar sized 357, and the .45 is more capable of ccw, and is more controlable in rapidfire, holds more rds, and is at least 2x as fast to reload, and it has a .22 conversion unit. Just TRY using a 160 gr jhp, at 1200 fps, out of a 6.7", 24 oz J frame 357, in rapidfire, against a 6.7", 24 oz 1911 varient, using a 165 gr jhp, at 1200 fps, on the electronic shooting timer and the 10" circle ofa man's chest sometime. The 1911 can get .22 second splits, the 357, only .40 second splits,

Same thing applies to larger, heavier versions of the same guns. A 4" L frame is the same size as a 1911, same wt, (if use alloy ducktail and mainspring housing) and the 357 user will have real trouble getting .30 second splits, with 160 gr jhp's at 1400 fps, while the 1911 user can get .18 second splits, using 165 gr jhp's, at 1400 fps.

Why spend 10c a shot on "remanufactured" 38 wadcutter's, when you can spend 2c a shot on 22lr's, and do the same job, hmm?

So, no, the 357 is NOT a better all around gun than is a .45.

Also, NEITHER is a better choice than a pair of pocket guns, for realistic answers to what the handgun is required to do, and is capable of achieving. A Kahr PM9 and a suitably modified M21 Beretta are far better answers than is any one belt gun. The 9mm pocket pc, if properly loaded and used well, can handle any realistic handgun defensive needs, especially if it's altered to 356 TSW. The M21 can handle small game, plinking, etc, which is what is nearly always asked of a trail-kit gun, anyway. You dont need 20 seconds to swap calibers, and your defensive gun isn't tied up as a .22, while you pop a frog, bird, snake, etc. Why make all that noise, when you dont have to do so, hmm?

With a can on it, the M21 becomes truly a superb kit gun, and can double as a "problem remover" on men, too, if you are skilled and ruthless enough. No revolver offers this very useful option. With the aeosol grease in the can, and the slide locked shut, the M21 is extremely quiet. If you let the slide cycle, tho, the very lw slide blows open sooner than does that of larger .22 autopistols, so there's quite a bit more ejection-port "pop" with the M21.

The "hand on gun" (in pocket) discrete-ready position offers you a very useful speed into action advantage,(at least .25 second, and more like .50 second, for nearly everyone) with zero risk of snagging the gun on the concealing garment, or of getting a bad firing grip on the gun, in your haste. That's 1-3 extra shots, or a CAREFUL brain shot, that the speed into action of a pocket rig offers you. That is, if the gun is properly small and "dehorned", in a Kydex pocket holster, and with Velcro keeping the rig in the pocket, and if pants pocket is properly sized, and pants aren't too tight on the carrier.

The 15oz PM9 and the 11 oz M21 add up to less wt than an Alloy framed Officer's Model 1911, if the PM9 is using 55 gr bullets, and the OM is using 230 gr loads. If you put a steel ducktail and mainspring into the OM, the CANNED M21 and the PM9 are no more total wt, either.
 

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Another silly post.

What does this: "Nobody has to hunt big game with handgun"

Have to do with this: "The 1911 can get .22 second splits, the 357, only .40 second splits"

Have to do with this: "NEITHER is a better choice than a pair of pocket guns"

Or this: "With a can on it, the M21 becomes truly a superb kit gun"

Or this: "The "hand on gun" (in pocket) discrete-ready position"

All this blather in a thread about hunting with a handgun. GK, my dog can construct more coherent statements than what I read here.

Bah!

RIKA :(
 

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I hunt with a handgun to make it interesting and more challenging. It helps improve my stalking skills and it also forces me to be aware of shot placement.

In other words, it's something I like to do.

Mike
 

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The M21 is so anemic, it's only slightly better than a thrown rock.

If you're going to pack an M21, keep a baseball bat handy so you at least have a real weapon you can use.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
yeah, well, I can SHOOT, swiftly and accurately, and ANY time you'd like to TRY a ball bat against a M21, you are welcome to get a magfull of 22's in the face. the FIRST such hit is going to rock your WORLD, and you'll never notice the REST of them. :) It has downed many a dog, with a chest hit, altho most did run for a ways. A bullet hole in both lungs is fatal, regardless of its size, basically.
 

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And, nobody has to hunt big game with a .22 either. So what?

When I use a handgun to hunt, it is because I enjoy it. To be legal, I use a centerfire round.

Threats and false bravado aside, if a hit from a .22 works according to you, then it would be downright silly to suggest that a hit from a larger more powerful round would not work.

If it takes a magful, then perhaps your problem is shot placement.

:devil:
 

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Only a moron would worry about splits, thats IPSC BS! Marksmen are concerned about shot placement, obviously you know nothing about marksmanship. So what does your parole officer think about your .22 and "CAN"???? You just stated you can do it, how often do you practice??
 

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andy said:
yeah, well, I can SHOOT, swiftly and accurately, and ANY time you'd like to TRY a ball bat against a M21, you are welcome to get a magfull of 22's in the face. the FIRST such hit is going to rock your WORLD, and you'll never notice the REST of them. :) It has downed many a dog, with a chest hit, altho most did run for a ways. A bullet hole in both lungs is fatal, regardless of its size, basically.
No, what will happen is this:

You suddenly feel a presence near you in the dark, in a split second you try to whip out your canned M21, but the POS snags in your pocket.

Just as it snags, your world turns white with pain and a resounding "BONK!" echos through your skull. :)
 
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This one is really too much yu guys all crack me up and I do mean all of you...LOL this is great!
 

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mrostov said:
No, what will happen is this:

You suddenly feel a presence near you in the dark, in a split second you try to whip out your canned M21, but the POS snags in your pocket.

Just as it snags, your world turns white with pain and a resounding "BONK!" echos through your skull. :)
What? You're not going to face off with you in a threatening pose 10 feet away in a well-lit room with him in a "low ready" position and wait 'til he screams "Go!"? You're not going to go for a knife when its tactically wrong to do so while he squeezes your lemons? What kinda SHTF scenario is this, anyway? You don't fight fair! :crying:
 

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No, what will happen is this:

You suddenly feel a presence near you in the dark, in a split second you try to whip out your canned M21, but the POS snags in your pocket.

Just as it snags, your world turns white with pain and a resounding "BONK!" echos through your skull. :)
no, what will happen is some “yute” with a Lorcin is going to walk up to him and shoot him in the face. His last thought will be “that’s not how it’s supposed to work”
 

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I enjoy hunting with handguns. Rim fires aren’t allowed for big game. Hunting with a full power handgun is excellent training. You’re usually shooting at moving targets, and sometimes follow up shots are required.

it is seldom about end of the world fantasies.
 

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...A Kahr PM9 and a suitably modified M21 Beretta are far better answers than is any one belt gun. The 9mm pocket pc, if properly loaded and used well, can handle any realistic handgun defensive needs, especially if it's altered to 356 TSW.
And we're back to relying on calibers for which you can't get ammunition, even in most normal times. Good call.

...The M21 can handle small game, plinking, etc, which is what is nearly always asked of a trail-kit gun, anyway.
I have a PM9, and I have a beretta 21 (21A actually). And the 21A often wears a compact 1" x 5.7" suppressor. So other than the welded-on and jury-rigged structural changes that you recommend - all of which make it bigger, taller, and heavier than it needs to be - it's very similar to what you often describe as the ultimate rimfire pocket gun.

It's a neat little gun. It's pretty reliable and more accurate than a gun you'd expect a gun with only 1 1/2" of rifling would be. As I've said before, it's a good gun, I've had it for over 30 years and like it. But going small game hunting with it would be beyond retarded. It's simply not THAT accurate. If you wouldn't small-game hunt with a .22LR derringer (and it would be foolish to), you shouldn't small-game hunt with the 21A. It's ballistically the same thing.
So if this isn't a small-game hunting gun:
13702

Neither is a 21A; that's simple, mathematical, ballistic reality. They're in the same caliber, with the same barrel length, and the same sealed breech. Ballistically identical.

Never mind all the other issues it has as far as a hunting gun, its lack of ballistic capability just neuters it right out of the gate. You and I both like suppressed, subsonic .22LR stuff, so I'll use that example. My most-used .22LR subsonic load is Remington's 38-grain hollowpoint. It leaves my rifle at ~1050 fps, varying a little depending on environmental conditions. So it's a fairly weak .22LR round. Want to hazard a guess at the following: at what range does that watered-down, weak subsonic rimfire round from the rifle equal the point-blank muzzle energy of a hot MiniMag or Stinger at the muzzle of the 21A? What do you think? Does the Stinger at the muzzle of the 21A equal the subsonic from the rifle at 25 yards? At 50 yards? At 75 yards?

It's at 190 yards. Yep; if you believe the 21A has hunting-acceptable power even at the muzzle, you must believe a subsonic .22lr from a rifle has hunting-acceptable power at 190 yards. And at that point, we're back to "beyond retarded".

...With the aeosol grease in the can, and the slide locked shut, the M21 is extremely quiet.
Again, no. I've tried aerosol grease in two of my suppressors, and quit it for very good reason. The aerosol grease has a flammable carrier. Read any aerosol-applied white lithium grease MSDS - every one I've checked out not only lists 'flammable', but 'extremely flammable'. They specifically warn to not expose it to possible ignition sources.

That flammable carrier that the grease is saturated with, burns off with the first couple rounds thru the suppressor after charging, and those couple (2-3) rounds are firecracker loud. This isn't supposition or theory, it's firsthand experience. And aerosol white lithium grease is thinner than normal white lithium grease, so it also burns off faster. So rather than 10-12 good quiet shots (as with normal white lithium grease), you get maybe five shots before it's all burned off. And with the first couple being firecracker loud due to the volatile nature of the aerosol chemicals, that simply aren't there in the regular white lithium.

Actually doing stuff; it's a lot more fun and informative than daydreaming about doing stuff.
 
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