ok, silenced Ruger .22 pistol, 1911, M1A.

That was actually a well thought out statement. Hmmmmmmmmmm. Keep in mind gunkid, not everyone lives in your geographical location, or has the same temperature fluctuations that you have over 365 day. So while your choices suit you, mine suit me better because of my location. I probably won't require as much ammunition as you will as I'm currently practiced in my marksmanship, where you haven't shot in 30 years, with a couple of exceptions. Marksmanship is a perishable skill, wheather you think so or not.

As for ammunition availability, .308 is far easier to find in my area than .223 is, thats a fact. As for the .22 pistol, so my Ruger Mk II has to sit in a M7 shoulder holster, not really a problem. Small game with a .22 pistol is no problem. So my Gov't Model sits on my webbing , no problem. The only additional cleaning supplies that I carry for a .308 is a military rope pull through and a brass brush, not worth mentioning really. If the balloon has gone up, the last thing I'm going to worry about is concealability.

Remember your 1st option is our LAST option. You have no versatility or flexibility. If you find yourself in the sh*t, your truly in the sh*t with NO options! You were told before "a man can travel farther in 15 minutes in a car than he can in a day with a pack".

It seems to me that if you were looking for a truly minimal load,

The AR and a good .22 pistol with a 4"+ barrel would suffice.

1. Most infantry soldiers only carry a rifle.
2. The pistol would work for small game hunting.
3. Most of the early pioneers and mountain men only carried a long arm.
4. For as little as you would NEED them, the supressor and the .22 unit would not really be necessary. Combat soldiers don't require a supressor, and you would be shooting less than they would. The pistol could handle most of what the .22 unit could, and what it couldn't handle, the AR could.

I've never been in combat or in a fire fight, so I may be naive. However, I personally do not see the real need for a semi-auto rifle. I would be trying to avoid trouble at all costs, and if I got into a situation where I really needed semi-automatic fire, I doubt I would survive it anyway. If I had to choose a truly minimal weopon set-up, I would choose a Steyr Scout with 2 10-round mags and a target .22 pistol. The Scout would most likely be .308, but I think you could make do with a .223 too. If things were a lot worse than I imagine, I could get an auto rifle with the pistol or the bolt action.

John, I don't understand why you keep saying the .308 is not a GI round. Don't they use it in machine guns. While not as common as 5.56, it would seem like 7.62 would be pretty commonly available. Then again, you would have all those guys with the M1As and FALs dropping their 7.62 ammo to shed weight, so there should be quite a bit of it laying around .

Mike

GK, point #1, you won't be carrying your pistol in the thigh pocket of your cammies, at least not for long.

Why?

Try it for a few days and find out. When your thigh is chafed raw, you'll know what I'm talking about.

Thigh pockets are good for your gloves, hat, a map, maybe a couple of MRE components or a light snack, etc.

Point #2, Your pants pocket holster, like in the front pocket is null and void when you have to be very active. Try it for a week in the boonies and you'll see what I mean after the first day or two.

That method of carry is also null and void when you need to wear a pack with a hipbelt, the best way to carry a pack.

Neither of these carry methods will work worth a piss when you are riding a mountain bike.

Point #3 Now, here's a point which I think you have overlooked. Simply pack extra holsters in your ruck for different occasions. Extra holsters weigh almost nothing, especially the newer and better nylon and kydex ones.

When out in the boonies, moving fast and rough, use one style. Going into town and need to conceil, switch out your gear.

Point #4 'Extra' cleaning gear?

I carry the same set of GI rods and other stuff with an HK91 as I do with an AR-15 or an M1911A1. I just carry extra brushes, not like they weigh a lot. My brush set covers weapons I'm not carrying because who knows what I might find or eventually wind up having to use.

I also carry a set of ruptured casing extractors that are good for 5.56mm, 7.62x39mm, .308, and .30-06. My entire weapons maintenance kit fits into a USGI cleaning kit pouch carried in ruck. In the buttstock of my AR is a dedicated AR cleaning kit with an extra brush for the M1911A1, spare parts, batteries for the optic, etc. Keep a 3-9x telescopic style scope for the AR in the ruck. The primary optic is a 1x red dot.

The point is this. When you pack weapons in the boonies they get dirty and you have to clean them regularly, fired or not.

This is especially important with the AR system. There are trade offs in everything. The AR, provided that you are using a proper barrel, is often one of the most accurate off the shelf combat rifles in the world, but you have to keep it clean.

Point #5 Weapon Types

The animals you score depends heavily upon your area. For instance, it's long been considered amongst many that the best 'one gun' for living off the land in Florida, is a .22mag carbine. In the big ponderosa pines in AZ's mountains, you might see as many deer and elk as rabbits in some places. Just depends.

The AR-15 with a .22 unit is actually a pretty good game rifle combo for much of the USA, provided one knows how to shoot AND hunt, both skills not automatically being mutually inclusive.

I know for a fact that you can harvest an elk with a 5.56mm. In the extreme cold, you may have a problem, but it never normally gets that cold here, unless you are up really high.

BTW: DPMS is selling their own drop in .22LR unit now that isn't a Ciener. It looks a lot like the old Colt model. I bet it works better than the Ciener also.

I'm a flexible person, so my gear depends upon the situation and where I happen to be living. I'm not genetically grafted to any particular weapon.

At the moment, my primary fighting kit is a 16" barrel CAR-15 and a .45ACP M1911A1. The pistol and primary field knife are on a separate belt, so it I take off or just ditch the LBV I still have that gear on me. The multitool I also carry directly on me, separate from the LBV.

On the LBV is a Camillius dagger and a Ciener unit. Also on the LBV is a dedicated padded case and a small supply (140 rounds) of .22LR ammo. BTW, that's one loaded 10 round Ciener mag (stored in a pocket on the padded Ciener case) and one USGI compass pouch full of extra ammo. The Ciener case holds the 5.56mm bolt carrier when the .22 unit is in the rifle.

The LBV also holds 6 extra mags of 5.56mm ammo, in addition to the mag in the weapon.

The M1911A1 has an 8 round mag +1 round in the tube, 2 spare 8 rounders in a pouch on the holster, 2 spare 8 rounders in the primary reload pouch on the gunbelt, and 4 spare 8 rounders on the LBV. That's 9 loaded 8 round mags plus 1 round, for 73 loaded rounds of .45ACP.

Confucious say, "One can never have enough bang."

Driving a vehicle during a bugout and in some aspects of urban fighting, the pistol becomes the primary weapon, so one or two spare mags isn't going to cut it.

The .22 unit is mainly for hunting. I'll fight with it only as a measure of desperation.

In the next layer of gear, I have my ruck. In there I keep a stainless Ruger MkII as a spare weapon. Just so happens that the 4-3/4" barrel MkII can usually use the same holsters as the M1911A1.

In the next layer of gear, the vehicle/basecamp, I keep a bolt action scoped .308 rifle. It's a sporterized, refurbished Kar98 Nazi Mauser that was fitted with a brand new out of the wrapper Israeli military 7.62mmNATO barrel, Israeli 7.62mm magwell, Timney trigger, drill and tap, floated barrel, etc. It's MOA accurate (those Zionists do know how to make a barrel evidently) and tough enough for the Russian Front. I left the original irons on it (hooded front) and they work very well if I ever have to take the scope off.

Point #6 Spare parts, who in their right mind doesn't carry them?

I carry spares for the AR, M1911, MkII, and the Mauser. I still need to get spares for the Ciener if I don't switch to the DPMS. The Mauser is probably the simplest weapon. The main spares I have for it is a spare firing pin and mag spring. Most of the spares, except for the AR's, I keep in my ruck.

Personally, I like semi-auto capability, and I like suppressed fire. (Don't have my suppressed Mk2 back yet, but the AR with the suppressor is inarguably more versatile than without it.) The only argument I can possibly see being made against a suppressor is added weight. If you don't place any value on the 'can', the added weight is just a negative for you. I do place value on it, so the extra weight is a non-issue with me.

Going to admit to "missing a lot" here, but true story. When the AAC suppressor was brand new, was trying it out up in the country. Small bird up in a tree, on a lone, bare branch. (Yes, I know, "He was shooting a .22 UP into the air!?!?" Well, it was on 1,100 acres of land with no dwellings in that direction, and using subsonic (read "weak") .22 rimfire, so no, I wasn't endangering anyone.)

Anyway, I confess to missing the bird three times, at about 60-70 yards shooting standing, off hand. (How about I blame it on the AR's non-ideal rifling twist for .22 ammo...? Sounds like a good theory to me. ) The amazing thing is that I couldn't have been mssing that bird by an inch or two, and it just SAT there until the fourth shot knocked it clean out of the tree. I was very impressed at that. That tells me something that a paper target or tin can never could; the subsonic .22's are awfully 'stealthy' out there, if they won't scare off a bird on a branch just an inch or two away.

Regarding the .223/.308 argument, IMO, a big factor there is location and circumstances. I have plenty of confidence in my CAR-15 with 5.56/.223 in my area, in my circumstances. In africa, wyoming, antarctica, etc, it would be a much poorer choice. I prefer the 5.56, largely for the reasons outlined above, but if I were in Alaska, I'd go with something heavier.

As far as AR vs. FAL or M1, again, in my area the AR does fine. I've heard more than once that it's unreliable in arctic or near-arctic conditions; couldn't say as I've never used one in those conditions. If true, you obviously would want something that IS reliable in those conditions, even if it meant a non-semi-auto. (Blasphemy to some here, I realize.)

"ok, silenced Ruger .22 pistol, 1911, M1A, 5 lbs of pistols, .5 lb of spare mags,1 lb of ammo (230gr .45's are 22 to the lb) about a lb of holsters and mag pouches. 9 lb M1A or Fal, a lb of scope, a lb of mount, a lb of bipod. 2 lbs of spare mags (4) 160 rds of 175 gr smk match ammo 10 lbs, a 31 lb total. The noise of the 308 is going to make you NEED more rds than the user of the canned 223, ya see. SO is missing a lot at long range, and trying to shoot thru "cover". 308's not concealable, the rd's neither the GI rifle rd, nor the most commonly available rd. Trying to use a 308 with one hand sucks, too. With a fully capable can on the 308,such one hand use is out of the question. The .22 pistol's not ccw- capable, nor is it as accurate or easy to use well as is the .22 AR unit."

The question I have is why would folks be locked into the assumptions you are making. The scout scoped M1A is much lighter than the rig you describe and a good rifleman doesn't need a bipod to use it too it's effective range nor does he need match ammo.

This whole "have to shoot more" deal only exist in your head as well as this idea that 7.62 ball isn't avaliable, there is probually more 7.62 avaliable than anything else. You will have to de-link it but so what? I'm not so sure it matters anyway, why the hell would you want to be anywhere close to military units to begin with? You think you are going to pick the battlefield after major battles for ammo or are going to ambush squad and platoon size units? They don't send troops out in smaller units than squad or platoon size.

You better have what ammo you need to start with, to think you will be "foraging" ammo leaves alot to question and is pretty damm risky.

Where does "5lbs" of pistols come from? My G26 wieghs 26 oz. loaded with 10 rounds and the .22 con wieghs about 8 oz. When i replaced the Glock adj on my G34 i put them on the .22 con top end. Now, I will agree that the .22 unit in the CAR15 is easier to use than a hand gun, but for the ranges .22LR is effective a pistol would work fine. Besides all this "foraging" for food you have in mind is a loosing proposition as well, you better have your chow on hand as well so you can stay low. If you have to live hand to mouth and it's going to have you moving around much more than you need to, coming into contact with too many folks.

"The SCOPED, canned CAR, with .22 unit,is a LOT more likely to score animals, in the usual conditions of dawn,dusk,or thick,dark woods than is the iron sighted .22 pistol. Put a scope on the pistol, and it's heavier,bulkier, and MUCH slower to use. The canned .22 pistol is of NO value in training with the rifle. The .22 unit for the AR is of MAJOR utility in training for the 223."

All this SHTF hunting you have in mind is really in direct contradiction with your idea that here will be no game animals left. Like I said before though counting on hunting in any area folks might be close enough to hear a shot is silly. Also, why won't there be any .22 rifles in the group, it's very unlikely that folks are going to be instantly alone with only one rifle avaliable.

"finding a place on the BELT,or the pack harness,etc,for BOTH big pistols, sucks. You CAN'T conceal them both, and have them ready for quick access,while wearing apack. The only way to do so for the 1911 is to wear it in a top-access fanny pack,at your navel. You r a LOT more likely to "shed' the 1911,in a moment of fatique, etc, than I am to take the pocket 9 out of pocket and leave it laying someplace, JUST out of reach, too. "

There is also the option of a drop holster, but that takes away the CC option. I use the fanny pack method and it woks rather well with a pack, I have been on several back packing trips CC like this. The fanny pack is also a good place to keep compass, maps .22 top end ect. Pocket carry with a pack doesn't work worth a crap in the field.

"You need bore cleaning gear,LOTS moreof it than I do,(because you "think" you are going to do lots of long range bs) andyou have no "backup" parts,if your rifle takes a hit from a bullet, a fall, etc. I can quite possibly either still use the .22 unit,or take a part from some dead guy's AR or M16. You dont have even 10% as much hope of finding another FAL or M1A-M14,(OR 308 ammo,much lessMATCH ammo) and you know it. Since you have to carry more ammo, etc,and a can for the 308 is twice as big and heavy as a can for the AR (if both are as capable of handling rapidfire with full charge ammo) you basically have to carry 16-20 lbs more gear than does the guy with the canned CAR-15 and .22 unit. A 50 lb total load is already so much that you have to be Olympically fit in order to fight with it, day after day. The SAS thinks 40 lbs is the max wt for such scenarios, actually, and no, you aint even CLOSE to being SAS-fit."

Now we are entering the land of "JD Doen't Know what He's Talking About" M1A's are very easy to clean with nothing but the butt stock cleaning kit. You couldn't make a M1A dirty enough with the ammo one guy could carry not to run if you tried. Why don't we have back up parts? under the butt plate of my M1A's I have enough spare parts to go as long as the barrel would last. ARs require much more cleaning gear since they [email protected] where they eat and thats double true when you start using a .22 con in them. All the rest of your asumptions are just that and have no bearing on reallity

"The pocket 9, pants pocket holster, canned M21, (carried in thigh pocket of cammies) spare mags, centerfire ammo, total 40 ozs. Concealed all the time, while wearing a pack. No more role than the pistol can or should have, shtf, such a pair of pocket pistols are the most wt and bulk worth bothering-with. The total wt of CAR,can, mags, scope, bipod, .22 unit, pistols, spare bolt for 223, cleaning gear,etc, is under 16 lbs. For no more than can or should be done with firearms, post shtf, that's plenty enough bulk andwt to have to lug around."

Very true, I'm not intrested in 40oz service pistols for field carry.

"Once inside the "cache circle", it will be possible, advisable, to cache 10-15 lbs of the BOB gear, and you will doubtless have shed, or will shed, as much or more in the way of body-fat, and get really "hardened in" to the horrors of shtf "life"."

There is no way to train for drinking bad water and eating poor food, what happens is you gradually loose your health till you get sick or hurt then you die. This idea of a "cache circle" is just going to open you up to lots on un needed danger traveling all the time under such conditions would be dangorous at best.

"Given a mountian bicyle, you can cover a lot of pretty bad terrain,in a fairly short time period, even at night, with a 50lb load of guns, armor,gear, if you are truly fit. As in 100 miles in a week, at NIGHT. If even half of the terrain is pavement, or open, flat ground, you can double that, while being a lot more discrete than can any bozo trying to do the same thing, with a 4wd."

I suppose I could see some situations a mountain bike might be usefull, but you aren't going to make good time at night without land nav skills and luck on your side. Going cross country at night on a mountain bike is going to lead to injury and riding on trails and roads is going to lead to ambush.

I see the merit in a LW set up for a on foot bugout, but thats a personal SHTF option in my situation, you seen to have a hard time understanduing the differences.

My LW personal SHTF arms look about like this with some minor exceptions


Teuf,

223 fan said:

As in 100 miles in a week, at NIGHT. If even half of the terrain is pavement, or open, flat ground, you can double that, while being a lot more discrete than can any bozo trying to do the same thing, with a 4wd.

Click to expand...

Well, for one thing, that 'bozo' in the truck, instead of taking a WEEK to cover that 100 miles, like Mr. Wile E. Coyote on the bike, covered that same 100 miles in probably 2 HOURS or less, and he did it weeks prior when it first started to look bad. He's now in a secure location about 250 to 300 miles away from where you are still pedaling.

And.... the 'bozo' in the truck had some mountain bikes in the back of the truck. They are parked at the now well established and guarded basecamp.

BTW: You'd better pedal faster than that if you want to dodge fallout, FedGov martial law forces, or any bugs from a bioweapon attack.

You also won't get away fast enough from those with a plan similar to your's.

All of those with a similar predatory mindset as your's will have gone ahead of you with vehicles and now will be picking off the slower refugees, like yourself.

While you're running the gauntlet and running out of ammo, the 'bozo' in the truck will be enjoying the fresh mountain air and maybe even feeling a tad bit of pity for you, just a tad, and only briefly.

u dont know your ass from a hole in the ground. Fallout takes TWO FULL HOURS to settle after a ground blast. There's not nearly as much fallout from an air blast. NATURALLY, <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>, you ride UPWIND, if at all possible. there's no such thing as a fallout cloud, that you can't pedal a bike clear of, in 2 hours, if you're not sick or injured, anyway.

I've carried guns afield for MANY a day, never had to bother with cleaning them at all. I ALSO know enough to PAD the damned thing in my pocket, unlike SOME morons. I've ccwed pistols for many, many months on end, and never bothered to clean them. I'd never bother to clean an AR which always had a cap or condom over the flashhider, or a cap in the end of the can, a mag in the well, and the ejection port shut, if I hadnt fired it, a LOT. Sure MAYBE if had to crawl in the mud with it, or be in sand-country, but then I'd just tape the cracks shut. I aint talking about stupidly wearing an open pisto rig.

Your pack is not properly adjusted-designed if it or its harness interferes with easy access to the front pants pocket.

You can MISS a guy, MANY times, when you are being shot at, so the bolt action is a STUPID choice.

If you could READ, <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>, you'd KNOW where the 5 lbs of handgun stuff came from. A canned Ruger .22 is 40 ozs, so is the 1911. Holsters, mags, mag pouches all DO weigh something, ya know. A scout scoped M1a has NO range advantage over the CAR-15.

there's NO range advantage of the 308 over the 223 in heavy cover, OR darkness, and only an idiot is in open country in daylight. You CROSS such country, ASAP, at night, and hole up during daylight hours.

U dont even know what a cache circle IS, obviusly. It's at MOST a FEW miles wide, and you don't move much, just enough, and at NIGHT, <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>. You dont access the cache just for the hell of it, either,. So what's with your bs claim about "having to move all the time, hmm? It's you dumbasses who are making NOISE, being out in daylight, and staying in the same place who have the extra, unnecessary risk. Not the guy who's doing it my way.

jYeah, when it starts to look bad. Like WHEN? WHO can afford to just take off, lose job, business, get in TROUBLE with law over kids not in school, etc, "when things START to "look bad? Bs, nobody'd leaving until they are FORCED to do so, and what's more, anyone with sense can SEE that much.

I understand FAR more than you do, without a doubt, about ALL aspects of survivalism. You WANT it to be a <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font> cakewalk, and I KNOW it's going to be pure hell. That's the diff. I PREPARE for pure hell. You are COUNTING upon being able to round up loved ones "help", etc. I know that such aint happening. U are COUNTING upon being free to drive a 4 wheeled vehicle. I know such will just get shot to shreds by OTHERS wanting such a vehicle, your gear, your women.

Who SAYS military will be BOTHERING to lug M60's around, and who says YOU will be able to TAKE any such ammo, hmm? Also, 308 ball doesn't give the 308 ANY range advantage over the AR. YOu ONLY get that advantage (if indeed you have ANY) with 308 MATCH ammo. Such ammo aint readily available. You aint GOT thousands of rounds of it, either. Nor will you HAUL much of it around.

The "group" aint likely to have SUPPRESSED 22 rifles. There will be people EVERYWHERE, <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>. YOu "think" you are the ONLY one who's EVER considered the area YOU choose as a good retreat spot? You are fos. Many more will just STUMBLE upon it. I have no intention of starting anything, but if you are in the open, in daylight, post shtf, PLENTY are going to start crap with YOU.

In fact, plenty of desperate people will come LOOKING for the source of gunfire, looking to take your gear, whatever game or livestock you shot, and maybe even your FLESH.

no, it's NOT 'in direct contravention to my ideas about game". It's useful IN CASE there's some game, and I never said game would be gone INSTANTLY. You just ASSUME that getting thru the first 2 months of shtf will be a piece of cake. You are fos about that, for sure. during that time, and any other time, I want to be free to QUIETLY and efficiently, take livestock, dogs, game, predators, and men. Furthermore, the gear that helps me do that is useful in other ways, or NOW. The .22 unit is superb training device. The suppressor is VERY helpful, even in a full fight, because it adds stabilizing wt to the muzzle, reduces muzzle jump and recoil, ELIMINATES muzzle flash at night, and reduces flinching.

U wanna pay TWICE as much, lug around a Scout M1A, with NO more effective range on me, and NO suppressor, be without a .22 unit, concealment, effective one hand use, be my guest. I hope eveyone is as stupid as you are, but the sales of my suppressor books and the sales of AR's, parts kits, .22 units, etc tells me that they are not.