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Discussion Starter #1
Was the draw .5 seconds? Or did he have his hand on the gun? Did he have his hands in the surrender position? Were his shots .21 or .25 apart? Isn't this a little silly? Who would go into a gunfight with his or her hands raised above their head? Someone who want's to get dead, that's who. Every situation is different, every one. I have not shot anyone for over thirty years, and that was wartime. I have been in shooting situations very rarely, as any honest LEO will tell you. I have been in the dry mouth, sweating, times when you count on your firearm, be it a Glock, Colt, SIG, Beretta, 9MM, .45 .357, or whatever to save your a**. Luckily for me it never came down to having to shoot someone. This does not mean I'm saying don't train. Far from it. Train, Train, TRAIN. BUT, remember what you are training for. To protect your life and the lives of the people you care about, not to get .19 "splits", or ringing gongs at 21 feet. In a fight for real, I'll try to have an AR-15, (not 10" barrel) or a 12 Gauge. In a surprise, (some warning) encounter, you betcha my gun is going to be in my HAND, not in my holster.
 

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u don't even know the meaning of the words, obviously. 99% are NOT cops, if they draw their guns because they THINK that there MIGHT be trouble, they will lose their ccw permits, if not go to jail.

That's why the pocket pistol is better than the belt gun. You simply put your hand on the gun, in a firing grip, pulling it partway out of the Kydex rig, any time you smell a rat, or anytime that you enter what's statisitcally a high risk area, ie, convenience store, dark alley or parking lot, public restroom, etc, If nothing is amiss, nobody is the wiser. If you need the gun tho, it's .5-1.0 second faster into action than is that belt pc. That means you get to fire 2-5 more shots, or in most cases, get the gun out and "on" the attacker, in time to NOT have to shoot him, cause he sees the gun and stops his "move".

I'd pick a Star 380, properly modified and loaded, over a 1911 or 357 or any other belt gun, any day, because of the above advantages, especially if the .45 was full of 230gr jhps, (or worse, ball ammo) or the 357 was full of 158 gr jhps', full charge loads. The 380 can be loaded to provide 400 ft lbs (50 gr hollowbased, solid copper hp, at 1900 fps, in a 9x18 JB case.) which is a lot more effective than ball ammo is, and is at least as effective as the 850 fps jhp's are, and is a lot more controlable than the 357 is.
 

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sorry folks

He makes a good point here, its why i like my Mak
Andy jus' wish you had left off the first sentence
best wishes
r
 

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Terry G:

I game for fun and I don't confuse gaming with training for a fight. However, IPSC does allow me to shoot while a little jazzed up and it does reinforce basic shooting skills.

I have had to draw twice in civilian life and many more times during my short career in law enforcement. You better believe when I crept up that dark alley while the bank alarm was ringing I had my gun in my hand, and it was a shotgun.

andy:

In my home state, a CCW holder would be able to have pistol in hand if they felt the use of deadly force was sure to ensue. However, if you knowingly pointed the gun at another person you better have your ducks in a row.

As for the .380, I have a Keltec P3AT that I use as a bug or for deep concealment in summer months. No matter how you cut it the .380 is a mouse gun. My primary carry gun is a 1911 lightweight commander. Carry what you will and I'll do the same.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
andy said:
u don't even know the meaning of the words, obviously. 99% are NOT cops, if they draw their guns because they THINK that there MIGHT be trouble, they will lose their ccw permits, if not go to jail.

That's why the pocket pistol is better than the belt gun. You simply put your hand on the gun, in a firing grip, pulling it partway out of the Kydex rig, any time you smell a rat, or anytime that you enter what's statisitcally a high risk area, ie, convenience store, dark alley or parking lot, public restroom, etc, If nothing is amiss, nobody is the wiser. If you need the gun tho, it's .5-1.0 second faster into action than is that belt pc. That means you get to fire 2-5 more shots, or in most cases, get the gun out and "on" the attacker, in time to NOT have to shoot him, cause he sees the gun and stops his "move".

I'd pick a Star 380, properly modified and loaded, over a 1911 or 357 or any other belt gun, any day, because of the above advantages, especially if the .45 was full of 230gr jhps, (or worse, ball ammo) or the 357 was full of 158 gr jhps', full charge loads. The 380 can be loaded to provide 400 ft lbs (50 gr hollowbased, solid copper hp, at 1900 fps, in a 9x18 JB case.) which is a lot more effective than ball ammo is, and is at least as effective as the 850 fps jhp's are, and is a lot more controlable than the 357 is.
Yes, John-Boy, you are sooo, much wiser and sharper than I am, that's why you have spent one half of your adult life in prison. That's why you can NEVER own a firearm again. We both get get Federal check's , want to compare mine to yours? My post was about GUNFIGHTING, not choice of weapons. You have never been in a gunfight, or in that situation. One of these day's day's your going to realize your anger and hatred is toward yourself, not "the man".
 

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andy:

What's your story dude? When I first came to this forum I barged in with a bad attitude because I had surfed the threads and developed the opinion that the forum members were rude, crude, and cluless. After a couple of days I realized the forum has been poisoned by two users and I think you are they, posting under two usernames.

The usual tactic is to avoid recognizing the trolls by ignoring them and they will go away. Other forums tried that with gun kid (are you gun kid?) but it didn't work. Eventually the nastiest trolls are banned. WTF is your major malfunction? If you are that much in need of attention can't you find a social program in your area that will offer free counseling?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
robert garner said:
He makes a good point here, its why i like my Mak
Andy jus' wish you had left off the first sentence
best wishes
r
Mr. Garner, if you check my previous posts, you'll see I'm a firm believer in Makarov's. Small enough for concealed carry, but with enough punch, to get the job done. Andy, John, .223 Kid, or whatever he is this week, HATES Makarov's. How anybody, can praise .380's, and then say Makarov's are POS, know's nothing of firearms. Good ole John-boy does not know that the 9X18MM smooks people harder than a .380. THe 9X18MM comes in great hollow points too, John.
 

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Ankeny said:
andy:

What's your story dude? When I first came to this forum I barged in with a bad attitude because I had surfed the threads and developed the opinion that the forum members were rude, crude, and cluless. After a couple of days I realized the forum has been poisoned by two users and I think you are they, posting under two usernames.
The people here on this forum are some of the finest folks I have ever met, always freely giving of their knowledge and helping others. Andy/223 fan/gunkid is so poisoned by his hatred and jealousy of others that he finds joy in harming them any way he can. We have offered him fellowship if he would just change his attitude but he has spurned it.

RIKA
 

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.223 Fan and Andy are indeed the infamous gunkid. Now that that's cleared up, let's clear something else up about IPSC (Ankeny this is for you). A lot of people here have shot in IPSC. The derision expressed towards IPSC is really directed to the fact that gunkid THINK IPSC stages really are how combat would be. He really thinks you can miss fast enough to win a real fight. He really thinks splits are important. People who shoot it for the reasons you stated (Ankeny) we don't have a problem with, so you don't need to be apologetic about shooting IPSC. Many of us here shoot "games", as long as you know it's a game and have fun, you're on the right track.

Terry, the reason I brought up a .5 second draw, hands from surrender, etc. was to show that you were not claiming to have shot that string in accordance with any ISPC stage rules, and that the comparison of your shooting with an IPSC stage (which was the main argument against you being able to shoot like that) wasn't appropriate, because it wasn't even attempted. I hope by now you know I don't count game rules as hard and fast combat rules like someone else here does.
 

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Ankeny,

I have a huge problem with IPSC... allow me to explain.

I used to shoot in IDPA, IPSC, and even the Combat Masters Pistol Competitions. One thing that was always stressed was time. I started noticing that people were doing some really bad things to get their times down like reloading while moving from cover to cover, crowding cover, etc.

Now, I enjoy shooting competition but I shoot it as if I were in a real gun fight. Most people don't. They develop bad habits and if they have to use a gun in self defense they are going to fall into the habits of doing stupid crap like reloading on the run between cover or out in the open. Do that and don't be surprised if you end up shot in a real fight.

Competition can be fun and enlightening but developing bad habits for faster time may cut your time short in the real world. That is what is stressed by Garand, and others here.

Welcome aboard.

Mike
 

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Thank you Hard Rock, well stated.
 

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Whwn Jedd Cooper fouded the SWPL he was trying tp cfeate a martial art. Since he gad used handguns in combat he knew what he was doing. IPSC was eventuakky domonated by the "gamesmen' and losy a great deal of its real world practocallity. What is taught in many IPSC stages today would be suicidal in actual combat.
 

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IPSC stages don't teach they are tests of shooting ability set up within the guidelines of the rulebook. IPSC, IDPA, PPC and so on can peacefully coexist fside by side with self defense shooting if the shooter will maintain the proper perspective and actively seek out the good and useful elements.

I started my handgun competiton career in 1976 shooting PPC during a brief career in law enforcement. During the past 30 years I have shot just about every handgun discipline imaginable. I have also maintained my close association with law enforcement. Today, I shoot IPSC, IDPA, and Steel Challenge. I also assist with handgun training for various law enforcement agencies.

It's odd, I have shot with law enforcement officers and defensive shooting practioners who proclaim IPSC will get you killed. They twist off about gamers with an unrivaled passion. I hear this stuff on the range while I am teaching, training, and assessing shooters. Still, the basic shooting fundamentals stay the same. To be successful at IPSC you need to have a firm grasp of the fundamentals of shooting and you must have developed proper technique in order to carry out those fundamentals. A person must have developed a superior index, they must master visual skills, they must be able to shoot on the move, shoot as they initiate movement, and they must be masters of the elements of the shooting platform such as grip, balance and stance, in all sorts of positions.

Indeed, the very basics that I practice to hone my skills in IPSC, the draw, transitions, the element of movement, and so on are the same elements taught at Law Enforcement Centers, defensive shooting schools, and in the military.
 

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Regarding the games, is the desire to win SO strong that people intentionally do stupid stuff, as mentioned, and purposely use tricked out guns that basically nobody would carry and ammunition that barely makes it out of the barrel?

I want to get into competition, but not to win. Rather to see how I would do using my carry gear and FMJ ammunition that equates to my carry load as closely as possible.

Heck, I've always thought that the best kind of training is force on force with simunitions. Too bad there is too much legal crap involved that you have to basically be a licensed LE instructor to use them.

In any event, as I said before this whole "20 yards is long range" fiasco. My understanding is that GK said it was long range when someone is shooting at you. That's why the target got posted and in my opinion, if ANYTHING, Terry was the one that brought it closer to "gaming" style shooting than anything that GK ever said.

Now, am I wrong? I've alluded to this before and it's just flown on by...
 

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yeah, they can't ADMIT

that they just OVERLOOK big chunks of the qualifiers that I always put into my posts. like they OVERLOOK the TIME element about the Fed's bs claims. Hell, I've HAD MANY 10 shot groups of 3" at 50 yds, slowfire. The ISSUE was the liar's claim of doing it in 2.71 seconds, but the pos's here aint GOT a CLUE about what having to hit SWIFTLY does to accuracy. they aint GOT a timer, being too cheap to buy one, and too LAZY to improve their speed.
 

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jeff never had a CLUE. he COULD have imposed the

ccw capable rule, from the START, just like the inventor of basketball said you HAD to dribble the ball. Why? no reason, just part of the "rules'. Jeff could have said guns had to be under 8" and under 8 ozs and have at least 400 ft lbs of energy, and be concealable under a t shirt, but he DIDN'T, because he wasand is a lame with no IDEA what's what. He ENCOURAGED the use of speed rigs, for a DECADE. he never HAS wanted a real ccw rule, nor a rule about wt or size restrictions. In fact, he's come out AGAINST such restrictions.

We need to have the score reduced by 1 pt for every oz of gun wt, and for every inch of ht and length of the gun. We need the score increased by 20% for using ccw capable gear, and increased 20% more for actual use of practical concealment (ie, FASTENED coat, or shirt, sweater, sweatshirt over the gun and gear) THEN there'd be LOTS of R and D done where it NEEDS to be done, on ccw gear, control of same. The courses of fire need to be much closer ranged, much fewer targets per stage, with time being divided into score, ALWAYS. Faster is always better. OF COURSE, IDIOT, THE HITS MUST BE PRESENT. Why is it that MORONS always ASSUME that faster means missing, hmm? Because THEY can't go faster without missing, they ASSUME that nobody can. Well, the fact is that many guys can hit 3x faster than the average bozo can.
 

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Will gamers do anything to win? Unfortunately some will, including cheating, falsifying scores, premature taping of targets for their friends, sandbagging, and so on. Cheaters suck. It doesn't matter if it's IPSC, pool, or golf.

As for the guns we use, well it is a game. Does a golfer need a Ping putter? No but a lot of them have one. Do you need custom tuned darts to participate in a dart league at the local pub? Nope, but some people have them. Do you need a $500.00 cue to shoot pool? The list goes on and on.

I shoot Open with a $3000.00 blaster because the game is so incredibly intense. It's just a hoot. I shoot Limited 10 with a Les Baer Premier II. The only change from stock is a little old Wilson clip on magazine well, an STI competition sear, and a Caspian fiber optic front sight. I made M class in both Limited and L10 with that set up out of an Uncle Mike's Kydex holster worn on my pants belt. I shoot Production Division with a CZ 75B. I put a Wolff spring kit in the CZ and straightened the magazine brake so the mags would drop and other than that the gun is bone stock. I use a cheap plastic Fobus holster. You don't need to spend a lot on money to be competitive if you can shoot, but there is also nothing wrong with going to the line with the best gear money can buy if you are a gadget junkie.

As for our weenie loads, for me it's a matter of not beating the hell out of my old joints and gear. I like weenie loads. However, I can do pretty well with factory ammo too. Still, it's a game and to be competitive it's nice to shoot the lowest recoiling ammo allowed. However, a lot of our guys shoot factory stuff and I have even shot some IDPA matches with exactly what I carry, Federal HydraShok ammo. Our club president has shot IPSC matches with his G27 and white box ammo. To each his own. Everyone has an agenda and as long as they are promoting the shooting sports, learning, sharing, and having fun, far be it from me to offer them anything other than gratitude and support.

Maybe I am in a unique position. In our club we welcome the rank newbie with open arms. No one cares about his gear. Guys shoot Glocks, Berettas, every kind of 1911 imaginable, Smith and Wesson, Sigs, it just doesn't matter. On the flip side, guys with M cards in their wallets show up with the best gamer gear available. No body cares, we all shoot together, tape targets together, and laugh together. Come shoot with us. I can promise you a great time.

Edit:

Right after I posted, I saw andy posted ahead of me. It gives me the creeps to think he was part of the sport I love. The guy needs help. Closer targets, fewer of them, blah, blah, is course design. Course design depends on the customers. IPSC course design is well, IPSC. If you don't like IPSC try IDPA. If IDPA isn't your cup of tea, get together with like minded friends, head to the range and do your own thing.
 

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I'm not so sure about overt penalties on pieces... I mean, I know a couple people that DO CCW Government Models in real life. Now, I haven't been around them when they're driving or after a 2 mile hike but they do CCW them, one guy IWB and another OWB but in a highride holster. (yes, they work in gunshops but nonetheless...)

I don't know about gaming, again, over my head, but there should be a combination of having to draw from concealment on shoot/no shoot targets. Having some kind of remote control paintball setup to replicate slow hostile fire on uncovered areas. Draw while seated in a "car" (junker)... stuff like that.

Of course there are people that walk around openly carrying. It's fine and doable here in AZ, I've done it a handfull of times before I had my CCW permit but I greatly prefer CCW.

There should be a dedicated CCW league and your carry package has to pass "reasonable" inspection, i.e. no big bulges, etc. Starting from discreet carry, yes, hand in pocket IS discreet. For me, IWB ccw, I wouldn't be able to have my untucked shirt already over the piece.

IMO, unless it's home defense or a "Warlord" hit, the vast majority of us will be involved in shootings with our CCWs, wearing what we normally wear on the street.

Giving ourselves every possible advantage during a game, while not gaming with the "disadvantages" of our daily carry piece can be a bad thing. I'm not saying this as an absolute, just as opinion, but I'm interested in thoughts.

Somehow we need to come up with a more realistic target than paper that will show a difference between .22LR and 9mm hits.

cheers
 

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Ankeny,

of course I didn't mean that directed at you it was open musings.

I realize that a lot of gaming is for fun... and to have the ability to get close enough to be a contender probably increases the intensity several fold.

Heck, I get a big kick out of just shooting.

I'm just wondering if there are any events where I would be able to say, shoot a lightly customized LW commander (built for carry) and not go against guys with tuned ubergear. The one thing that attracted me to Glocks is the GSSF, people are pretty darn competitive with what they would normally carry.

And while shooting at lightspeed like you did in the video looks very intense, I think going at it 1 on 1 w/ simunitions in the "haunted houses" would be a BLAST. I heard that at the last force x force championship (I think from LE/Military) in the finals there were some 140+ rounds used before someone finally won. Imagine if they only had 3 magazines :).
 

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I do just FINE, dude, there's no help needed at all.

I was PRESENT at the SETUP of IPSC, I know a lot of guys who were present at the early Mountain Man shoots at Big Bear, and I've received scores of letters from El Jefe, too. Have you? You are just a johnnycomelately guy who doesn't have a clue what IPSC OUGHT to be testing, instead of the carbine-type range stuff, that require you to do stuff you'd NEVER get done if you had no ear protection, were ducking incoming fire, trying to hit dodgers, cover-users, in bad light, etc.
 
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