[andy]

and that's Montana. Spring Sows,with cubs, weight about 300 lbs. I know a lot of bikers who are THAT "big", yet guys "think" .32's are adequate for men, and "need" 12 ga slugs for "bear defense". When a black bear goes over 300 lbs,it's nearly always just FAT, getting ready to hibernate for the winter. That's why Boone and Crocket uses SKULL size to rank bears.

12 ga slugs to the chest ROUTINELY dont stop 100 lb deer, so WHY expect body hits to stop even a black bear, much less a big grizzly, hmm? brain hits are the only thing likely to suffice. If I lived in Alaska, and worried about such things (I wouldn't) I'd carry an alloy framed, 7 lb BAR, in 308. Since I dont worry about things that are more rare than being hit by lightning, all I'd really carry is the 460 Rowland Lw Commander. If in town, the mag in the gun would feature the antipersonnel load, of 70 gr, 3 segment prefrags, 2300 fps. Once out of town, swap out that mag for the spare mag, full of 90gr swc's, at 2100 fps. Just leave the 70 grainer in the chamber, in case get a shot at a deer, and because it's about as likely to work on a bear,with a brain hit.

In reality,if you get charged by a bear, and all you have is a pistol, you are going to get mauled. That's where a 7 rd mag full of deeply penetrating rounds might be of value,asyou flop around on the ground, you can be weakening him with lots of shots up into his chest, perhaps then letting you jam the muzzle up under his chin, or to his temple, for the last few shots.

Even in "bear country", MEN are by far the most common, and the most deadly threat, and you quite commonly can't openly carry a gun. If all I have is a pistol, it's NOT gong to be out in the weather, where a potential attacker can SEE it. I want that pistol to be a BIG surprise if I ever need it.

 

[Paco]

Will look for a link but I recall a couple years back (ShootersTalk days) when I found a website on bear maulings where a survivor in AK compile a lot of bear info. There it was maintained that the AK Highway Patrol tested and determined that any pistol caliber from 9mm up would penetrate the brain pan and do the trick if it hit the bear up the nose or through the mouth but even the heavy weights (.44 mag on up) could fail due to glancing off the griz skull if they struck between the eyes or on the many sloping surfaces of those big skulls. They chose Glock .40's. But the lesson was that to save yourself at close range you have to hit the brain and power alone wasn't the answer. Especially when you consider the time to recover from the recoil of some cannon like a .454 Casull single action. Seems to me a 10mm, .40, or .45 acp would be about ideal. One with the size and trigger to allow fast precise hits at close range. (And we recall from the news stories about a year ago of a very lucky AK fisherman who stopped a sow griz with some lucky hits from a Ruger 9mm shooting fmj.)

I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to long guns except that they should allow one to make similiarly precise hits at much greater distances. Far better to be working on stopping a charge out at 50 yards than 10 feet. Out there it seems viable to be able to shoot to break down shoulder bones too.

One might be able to get two good hits in a second at 25 yards with a suitable rifle but I'm pretty skeptical anyone could be double that with even a boss equiped BAR in 300 mag. I don't think 45-70 lever guns are such bad choices but I've never shot one either. I do know how fast I shot two does with a .30/30 recently and it was as fast as I could have possibly gotten off two snap shots with anything considering I had to swing from one to the next at 25 and 35 yards or so. Shooting multiples at the same target might be a different story cause I wouldn't have had to swing a 30 degree arc to the second one.

But I've combined two threads here. Bottom line, I'd agree to be well set up for human predators first and foremost.

 

[andy]

Cougar, dog pack attacks r as "common"

as bear attacks. Who said anything about brain hits at 25 yds, 4 persecond? Not me, for sure. Not withan alloy 308. anyone is doing great to get .25 second splits,at 25yds, and stay on a man's torso, with a 223 auto. Hackathorn says he knows a guy who actually DOES have to deal with grizzlies. He has a 3006 Remington. He says that the INSTANT the guy sees a griz, he aims at its head with a the rifle, and if the thing does ANYTHING but run the instant it detects HIM, he starts shooting at the head, with a 10 rd magazine. Screw the law, and screw the body shots. If you are aiming at the head, hits on the spine and shoulder "humps" during a charge, are fairly likely. The further away you start shooting, the more hits you can get,the more likely it is for him to be slowed-weakened by the hits. 3006, just "close" to the spine is pretty likely to weaken him,giving you more time to fire more, carefully controled rounds at the critter.

 

[Guest]

I concur about start at the head and let the shoulders/spine be the 9 ring.

M1A SOCOM would make more sense to me for the wilderness than the bolt .375.

 

[andy]

as diabetes is better than AIDS, maybe

but still pretty lame. I wouldn';t bother to lug ANY rifle around, unless it was to be really, really "long term" (as in many years) in Alaska, or some such, unless there was the serious threat of hostile men. Then you already know what I'd choose. A 308 can be made to suffice out there,if you also carry something like a suppressed Mountain Eagle .22, which is a big gun, with enough sight radious and "hang" of barrel and "can" to get 1.5" groups at 25 yds, but weighs only about 28 ozs, canned. I'd still go with the alloy BAR in 308, witha BOSS comp, rather than the 2lb heavier M1A, tho.

The .22 to go into the pack, a pocket 9mm to always be in a kydex front pocket rig. If not carrying a long arm,then the 460 Rowland lw commander is the centerfire sidearm.