over the P3AT 380Keltec. the latter is plenty lw and small enough for shirt pocket, sleeve, or wrist ccw, and if it jammed every shot, it'd be faster for a series of hits than any mini revolver could ever be. You can clear a malfunction with the Keltec as fast as you can thumbcock the hammer on a minirevovler, due to its lack of a real butt, small hammer spur, and lack of a trigger guard. Those things are just asking for an accidental shot, and they miss a lot., Under lethal stress, they are a joke. a 1.5' barreled .22 Mag revolver gets 130ft lbs of energy, and no expansion of a hp bullet. The tiny 380 gets about 150 ft lbs, with factory loads, and can get over 300 ft lbs with reloads, altho that requires special bullets. Using the Silvertip 85 gr 380 jhp bullet, however, it's simple to get 250 ft lbs out of the keltec, cause it has a locked breech.
only ignorant fools choose mini revolvers
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the Kahr PM 9 is smaller and lighter
than the Bersa, and hits 2-3x as hard. I've shot a lot of animals with 380, .38 snub, and man, believe me, there's no noticable diff between them and a .22.. In fact, a Stinger from a .22 rifle seems to hit a bit harder,but that might just be from better placement, or the fact that at 1600 fps, the lhp really does expand, and transfers all of is 160 ft lbs. The 380 wastes or snubby doesn't expand a hp, so it wastes some of its 150-200ft lbs on overpenetration.
Basically, if a 380 does suffice, a .22lr almost certainly would have done so as well,cause the attacker wasn't very serious.
Yeah, yeah, I am aware that the rifle doesn't fit in your pocket. Read the post AGAIN. I'm taking about the EFFECT OF THE ROUNDS, not the gun that fired them. If carrying a .22 rifle wouldn't comfort you, neither should carrying a 380 or .38 snub. The .22 rifle,if it's an auto,offers BRAIN hits at a much greater distance than is feasible with pocket pistols, when under lethal attack. A good man with a rifle can manage such at 30 ft, in a fraction of a second. with a pocket pistol,it's more like 5 ft.
than the Bersa, and hits 2-3x as hard. I've shot a lot of animals with 380, .38 snub, and man, believe me, there's no noticable diff between them and a .22.. In fact, a Stinger from a .22 rifle seems to hit a bit harder,but that might just be from better placement, or the fact that at 1600 fps, the lhp really does expand, and transfers all of is 160 ft lbs. The 380 wastes or snubby doesn't expand a hp, so it wastes some of its 150-200ft lbs on overpenetration.
Basically, if a 380 does suffice, a .22lr almost certainly would have done so as well,cause the attacker wasn't very serious.
Yeah, yeah, I am aware that the rifle doesn't fit in your pocket. Read the post AGAIN. I'm taking about the EFFECT OF THE ROUNDS, not the gun that fired them. If carrying a .22 rifle wouldn't comfort you, neither should carrying a 380 or .38 snub. The .22 rifle,if it's an auto,offers BRAIN hits at a much greater distance than is feasible with pocket pistols, when under lethal attack. A good man with a rifle can manage such at 30 ft, in a fraction of a second. with a pocket pistol,it's more like 5 ft.
that'swith TYPICAL .38 snub, 380 loads
by hotloading the locked breech 380, with the right bullet,you can make it considerably more effective. About the best you can buy is the Winchester Silvertip ammo,pull the bullet with and inertial bulllet puller, get it up over 1200 fps in the little Kel Tec. I've achieved 1300 fps in the Star Pony, but it's twice as heavy as the P3At, and has a longer butt,and is SA. The P3ATis a DAO, very "thin" and is a bear to control in rapid fire with the 1200fps load. The aluminum jacketed St hp, however, expands well in flesh at such a speed. That's 270 ft lbs, and is worth having,but a 15oz, 6" Kahr PM9 9mm can have 400 ft lbs, 1500 fps, CorBon 90 gr jhp, and it's both more controlable and still VERYmuch capable of being handy in a front pants pocket rig.
So the P3At is for "weird" backup gun carries, like as a necklace pendant, taped to the backof neck(under long hair) in the crackof your butt, sideways above the genitals, at wrist, on upper arm (inside the arm),sideways, just above genitals, etc. You can have a much bettergun in your pocket, so why settle for 1/3rd to 1/2 as much power, hmm? pocket 9mm is plenty feeble enough. Do NOT used 115 gr and heavier bullets in pocket 9mm's as the short barrel means less velocity, and thus, ZERO expansion of the jhp in flesh. So they just have more recoil,for nothing. Recoil is stout in a 6", 15oz 9mm anyway.
by hotloading the locked breech 380, with the right bullet,you can make it considerably more effective. About the best you can buy is the Winchester Silvertip ammo,pull the bullet with and inertial bulllet puller, get it up over 1200 fps in the little Kel Tec. I've achieved 1300 fps in the Star Pony, but it's twice as heavy as the P3At, and has a longer butt,and is SA. The P3ATis a DAO, very "thin" and is a bear to control in rapid fire with the 1200fps load. The aluminum jacketed St hp, however, expands well in flesh at such a speed. That's 270 ft lbs, and is worth having,but a 15oz, 6" Kahr PM9 9mm can have 400 ft lbs, 1500 fps, CorBon 90 gr jhp, and it's both more controlable and still VERYmuch capable of being handy in a front pants pocket rig.
So the P3At is for "weird" backup gun carries, like as a necklace pendant, taped to the backof neck(under long hair) in the crackof your butt, sideways above the genitals, at wrist, on upper arm (inside the arm),sideways, just above genitals, etc. You can have a much bettergun in your pocket, so why settle for 1/3rd to 1/2 as much power, hmm? pocket 9mm is plenty feeble enough. Do NOT used 115 gr and heavier bullets in pocket 9mm's as the short barrel means less velocity, and thus, ZERO expansion of the jhp in flesh. So they just have more recoil,for nothing. Recoil is stout in a 6", 15oz 9mm anyway.
The reason I bought the Bersa was price. I think I gave $190. I know it was under $200. It is not a very comfortable gun to shoot though. It digs in between my thumb and index finger. But I didn't buy it for a plinker. I don't plan on clearing any rooms with it so it is just one of those 10 yrd guns. I have it loaded with federal personal protection rounds. Didn'treally choose them, that was really the only kind this gun shop had that was not fmj.
Nick
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P3SAT is $300, retail. Give it a year,
and it will be available,used, for $200,at least from private parties. The $600 Retail Kahr PM9 9mm pocket gun will be available,used, for under $400,here and there,too,and makes a lot more sense... You can carry a real gun, tucked in your belt. I've ccw'd a lw Comander that way, for many years, altho at the navel, not in small of back. Far faster to access,and I KNOW if anyone spots it.
Requires properly develped abs and pecs to concealwell under a t shirt tho (fastest access). Have to severely round off the front corners of the slide, for sit down comfort.
and it will be available,used, for $200,at least from private parties. The $600 Retail Kahr PM9 9mm pocket gun will be available,used, for under $400,here and there,too,and makes a lot more sense... You can carry a real gun, tucked in your belt. I've ccw'd a lw Comander that way, for many years, altho at the navel, not in small of back. Far faster to access,and I KNOW if anyone spots it.
Requires properly develped abs and pecs to concealwell under a t shirt tho (fastest access). Have to severely round off the front corners of the slide, for sit down comfort.A friend of mine bought a Kahr 9mm for his wife about 2 yrs ago and I think it was around $450, but not for sure. They took it out to shoot it and his wife couldn't hit crap with it, so he shot it and same result. He let me shoot it and now i'm no ace but I had the same result. Need less to say he was pissed for lack of performance from tha tkind of money. He traided it at a gun show a few months later. Maybe it could have been just a bad seed, but it turned me off of Kahr's.
Nick
Nick
I"ve had Colt 1911's that wouldn't feed
ball ammo,until I welded up the magcatch, to make the mag sit "higher" in the gun, too. should have sent it back to Kahr. Probably an oversize bore. $500 is nothing these days. What do you mean by "hitting nothing? ccw pistols almost never have to group better than 10" at 10 yds, and usually, not better than 10" at 10 ft.
ball ammo,until I welded up the magcatch, to make the mag sit "higher" in the gun, too.
should have sent it back to Kahr. Probably an oversize bore. $500 is nothing these days. What do you mean by "hitting nothing? ccw pistols almost never have to group better than 10" at 10 yds, and usually, not better than 10" at 10 ft. Oah thought I almost showed off my ccw (the Bersa) a few months ago. Bent over to mess with the baby at the mall, had jeans t shirt on and the bottom of my shirt caught on the gun and let it come visible. Nobody seen it though, had my back to a wall.
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not everything is an "opinion". some things
are FACTS. It's a fact that lethal stress increases chances of fumbling. It's a fact that a mini-revolve is awkward and slow to cock, HAS to be cocked, and has pathetically little power.
are FACTS. It's a fact that lethal stress increases chances of fumbling. It's a fact that a mini-revolve is awkward and slow to cock, HAS to be cocked, and has pathetically little power.
so if a turd "feels good" in your hand,
that's what you carry? Any hand can be trained to any gun. At various points in my 35 years with pistols, I've considered the .22 woodsman, the SA revolver, the M19, the M36 Smiths, the P35 Browning, the full size and wt 1911, the alloy commander to be "perfect" in how they "felt" What matters is comfort in ccw, speed into action, power of the hits, controlabiltiy, both as to accuracy of first hit and speed of repeat hits. A good 'feel" in the hand is irrelevant, actually. Just like the LOOKS of a gun are irrelevant.
that's what you carry? Any hand can be trained to any gun. At various points in my 35 years with pistols, I've considered the .22 woodsman, the SA revolver, the M19, the M36 Smiths, the P35 Browning, the full size and wt 1911, the alloy commander to be "perfect" in how they "felt" What matters is comfort in ccw, speed into action, power of the hits, controlabiltiy, both as to accuracy of first hit and speed of repeat hits. A good 'feel" in the hand is irrelevant, actually. Just like the LOOKS of a gun are irrelevant.
A turd?
That has to be the most wildest thing I think I have heard you say. Yes I do beleive that a hand can be trained to be proficient with any handgun, given the proper instruction. But with the large number of handguns out there why not just choose the one that best fits you, ie the user, and the need you have for it? I mean do you buy a pair of boots, or running shoes if they didn't "feel good"?Yes you can get used to them but why? I think that the big part of shooting is feeling comfortable with your equiptment. Why would you spend the time working with a gun, that you are trying to get used to, like the "feel", when that time, ammo, and money could be spent perfecting yourskills with a gun that you like. The civilian world is not like the military, we all have the choice to use what ever firearm that WE feel the need to use at any given time or task, as long as it is practical (like a 12 ga going to the store), it just ain't going to work. Just because YOU consider a M 36 smith a good "feel" dosen't mean the next guy will. You talk about stress increasing the chance of fumbling(witch I totally agree on) Why would you want someone to carry a gun that they are not comfortable with, in witch my 2c says that in a time of need,they will stress out and fumble. Any situation in witch a gun will be used in self defense will be stressful, so why make it worse with using a gun that you don't like.
Nick
That has to be the most wildest thing I think I have heard you say. Yes I do beleive that a hand can be trained to be proficient with any handgun, given the proper instruction. But with the large number of handguns out there why not just choose the one that best fits you, ie the user, and the need you have for it? I mean do you buy a pair of boots, or running shoes if they didn't "feel good"?Yes you can get used to them but why? I think that the big part of shooting is feeling comfortable with your equiptment. Why would you spend the time working with a gun, that you are trying to get used to, like the "feel", when that time, ammo, and money could be spent perfecting yourskills with a gun that you like. The civilian world is not like the military, we all have the choice to use what ever firearm that WE feel the need to use at any given time or task, as long as it is practical (like a 12 ga going to the store), it just ain't going to work. Just because YOU consider a M 36 smith a good "feel" dosen't mean the next guy will. You talk about stress increasing the chance of fumbling(witch I totally agree on) Why would you want someone to carry a gun that they are not comfortable with, in witch my 2c says that in a time of need,they will stress out and fumble. Any situation in witch a gun will be used in self defense will be stressful, so why make it worse with using a gun that you don't like.
Nick
???
Hum! I am not quite sure why this thread was sent to my e-mail?
I don't own a single revolver. I am fully automatic on all 4 of
my hand guns. Nor do I like wheel guns, as I sold my last wheel
gun, a S&W 38 spec. over a year ago. Must be a crossed wire.
Oh by the way does anyone else know what that reference a
"turd in your hand is about" oh god am I on the right web
site???????? funny though!
Hum! I am not quite sure why this thread was sent to my e-mail?
I don't own a single revolver. I am fully automatic on all 4 of
my hand guns. Nor do I like wheel guns, as I sold my last wheel
gun, a S&W 38 spec. over a year ago. Must be a crossed wire.
Oh by the way does anyone else know what that reference a
"turd in your hand is about" oh god am I on the right web
site????????
funny though!put a saw handle on a hammer, it's
STILL not going to cut wood or steel. LOTS of guns, in fact, nearly all of them, fail, most to a greater ,not lesser extent, at their MAIN job, which is ccw, being SWIFT into action, hitting HARD, and being controlable. You get those FOUR things together, then you LIVE with whatever else you have to put up with, or you smith it until you can, that's all.
STILL not going to cut wood or steel. LOTS of guns, in fact, nearly all of them, fail, most to a greater ,not lesser extent, at their MAIN job, which is ccw, being SWIFT into action, hitting HARD, and being controlable. You get those FOUR things together, then you LIVE with whatever else you have to put up with, or you smith it until you can, that's all.
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