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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If there are any other testers here that have a need for low cost ordinance gelatin, I found a site you may find very interesting:

http://www.vyse.com/contents.htm

Scroll down until you see "Gelatin for Ballistic Testing" and click on that.

I was doing a search on where to buy ordinance gelatin and that popped up. Just figured I'd share that with others who may have a need for the stuff.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Are there any thoughts on how one might make this a more realistic testing procedure? I'm thinking about bones and their affect on bullet trajectory / premature bullet expansion, involuntary muscular contractions on living things and how those might affect penetration, etc. Those are but a hand few of the things one might consider when testing using gelatin as the material of choice.

I'm trying to develop a far more realistic testing procedure than the standardized tests used by the government. Sure, properly prepared gelatin imitates tissue very well, but not much else.

I'm trying to develop intricate methodologies here. For instance, tissue on human beings vary in density (and other ways) form one area of the body to another, from one organ to another, etc. So, perhaps developing a piece-together mold that uses various mixes of gelatin would be a good idea in the exact shape of a human of course.

I'm also trying to develop a material (and electronics) that would far better demonstrate the "vertigo effect" phenomenon that happens to humans when trauma is induced to various parts of the body simultaneously.

How to competently duplicate bone structure and density is proving to be the biggest challenge at the moment.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
 

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As far as the vertigo effect, good luck.

No two people will react the same way. Shock has a large psychological component to it. Which is why some people can seem fine, even though they are about to bleed out, and others lose it completely over a scratch.

People have lost limbs and not reacted, and people have receivd minor injuries and gone into shock.

The quick and dirty for triage is RPM

(R) respiration - respirations over 30/min
(P) pulse - no radial pulse, or slow capillary refill at the digits.
(M) Mental state - unable to follow simple commands.

if any of those conditions are existant, then person is candidate for immeadiate treatment.

You'd be amazed at the punishment some people can take and not show signs of shock.

:devil:
 

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no, actually it ISN'T. the 10% jello mix is SUPPOSED

to simulate hog MUSCLE. There's very little muscle on the chest, and almost none on the side of the chest, and the only muscle IN the chest is the heart. The lungs, liver, and spleen are FAR more easily torn asunder than is the far tougher, more elastic heart or other muscle tissue. HIts to the gut are worthless. If they stop a guy instantly, it was NOT a physical incapacititation. Such is impossible to attain, with any sort of handgun load. it is a PSYCHOLOGICAL "quitting". There's nothing physical that you can do to the guts that immediately impairs physical functioning, NO amount of blood loss, nor shattering of the heart, can result in physical incapacitation in less than 5 seconds. This is true because the mammalian brain KEEPS 5 seconds's worth of oxygenated blood in the cranium. When the supply is lower than 10 second's worth, the heart pumps ANOTHER 5-10 second's worth of oxygenated blood. So guys are simply fos that blood loss is a manstopping effect. in the 10 seconds plus that THAT takes, the man can empty a mag into you, reload and empty the spare, and MAYBE do the same with a third, depending on mag capacity and how fast he is. He can charge 50 yds and cut you to pcs with a Bowie knife in 10 seconds.

Inducing shock, physical or psychological doesn't MATTER, is your ONLY realistic hope of instantly stopping a man with small arms fire, and most loads have VERY little of EITHER shock potential OR tissue destruction. The CONTROLABLE ccw pistol just CAN'T offer lots of BOTH penetration AND shock and tissue destruction. Only the 10mm Mag and 460 Rowland and .45 Super offer such potential at ALL, and only then if they are loaded with very special ammo. Otherwise, they have very little shock and destruction (ie, too deep penetration) and WAY too much recoil for use in a lw, compact ccw gun. The only way to get around this limitation is the very high velocity, very lw bullet, made of very hard material, made in sucy a way as to cause it to break into large chunks at impact. This way, adequate penetration is achieved, while getting lots more tissue destruction and shock.
 

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I guess that all those men who were stopped/killed instantly with the silly little 45/9mm/357sig/357mag/44 & 45's were just flukes. Only Dr. Gunkids magic bullets can effectively stop drug crazed thugs and innocent labrador retrievers with equal ease.

Okaay.

RIKA
 

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It's that GK doesn't understand the mechanisms involved. He's come up with a theory, but he doesn't understand how to actually test it.

You'd think that he would have rejected the myth (as demonstrated by Fackler) of depositing energy, after being shot in the belt buckle by a .45 - assuming you beleive him.

This is why he has posted the nonsense about punches in the martial arts section that he did, only to ignore the thread once a few examples demonstrating that he was wrong, were posted.

I think the main reason to hold on to this theory is that he's have to abandon his wonder bullets if he ever acknowledged this theory to be wrong.

:devil:
 

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If u made jello as easily torn as are liver, lung, spleen

it would shatter at a decent pistol hit, just like bucket of water will. there'd be no pretty pictures to show on the net, nor any point in spending the money on jello, nor wasting the time in mixing it. Many guys have autopsied deer hit with 223 sp, to say that the lungs are like scrambled eggs, etc. 460 Rowland Split Nose does the same thing. Out where deer are HIT, especially with 16-18" barrels, the velocity is 2400-2600 fps, not 3000 fps, and the 223 sp still works just fine. The .460 has 4x the frontal are of the 223, is at 2300 fps at pistol fight ranges, and has 3 separate wound channels. That more than makes up for any 300 or so fps "shortfall" that it might have vs the 223.
 

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andy said:
3.5 grs of bullseye, 230 gr lrn, struck me at an angle, in the gut, where you can take MASSIVELY powerful blows. Punches likewise have only about 200 ft lbs. Take one in the solar plexus, tho, and you're DONE for a while. :) I will be VERY happy to front kick you in the solar plexus, to DEMO that I'm CORRECT. Then I"ll piss on your face, as you lay there, so you'll REALLY know what a fool you are. :)

Just because the half assed WASTING of 300 ft lbs on a guy doesn't work does NOT mean that PROPERLY using ALL of 800 ft lbs doesn't work. I can PROVE that, on animals. 223 sp's knock down big dogs, .45 ball doesn't. The .45 as 4x the "frontal area" of the 223 bullet, and the SAME momentum, so it HAS to be the difference in energy-use and energy POTENTIAL ( to START with) that makes the READILY demonstrable difference, on animals whose chest is JUST as thick as a man's, and which are MANY TIMES more shock resistant than is a man.

Just because YOU are too lazy, cheap, chicken<font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font> and stupid to make and test controlable pistol rds that hit like a 223 softpoint rifle rd doesn't mean that BETTER men haven't done so (and proven them on animals).
The solar plexus has a nice big bundle of nerves. You're actually PROVING my point with that statement. You don't understand the mechanisms involved.

It's too bad that instead of rational debate, all you can do is hurl insults.

What better men? you? Better how? Somehow I don't think your life or your friends, or your accomplishments are better than mine (or anybody else's for that matter)

Proven? You don't know the first thing about proving anything.

I've killed plenty of animals with a .223. I know what works and what doesn't. I'll take a good ballistic tip over a soft point any day.

I also know what a larger caliber with a good bullet can do compared to the .223.

I've also killed critters with my .45 without gee wiz wunder ammo. For some reason, when you hit them where you're supposed to, they die.

But, be happy beleiving whatever it is you beleive.

:devil:
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
andy said:
it would shatter at a decent pistol hit, just like bucket of water will. there'd be no pretty pictures to show on the net, nor any point in spending the money on jello, nor wasting the time in mixing it. Many guys have autopsied deer hit with 223 sp, to say that the lungs are like scrambled eggs, etc. 460 Rowland Split Nose does the same thing. Out where deer are HIT, especially with 16-18" barrels, the velocity is 2400-2600 fps, not 3000 fps, and the 223 sp still works just fine. The .460 has 4x the frontal are of the 223, is at 2300 fps at pistol fight ranges, and has 3 separate wound channels. That more than makes up for any 300 or so fps "shortfall" that it might have vs the 223.
Andy, it is not a waste of time to test weapons and loads of various sorts on a "simulated human being." I've never subscribed to the "knowledge is power" cliche. I do not believe it to be true, or at best I believe it to be a half-truth. I believe the application of knowledge is real power. If you sit around with a few hundred "gigs" worth of information in your brain and have never used it - not even once - then you may as well not even know the things that you do. Raw knowledge can never equal experience. I not only like to know the utter most that I can about things, I want to know how to properly apply that knowledge as well.

Aslan was right -- the solar plexus has the largest nerve junction in the body. A properly placed, sufficiently powered blow - be it from man or from a gun - will take a man down, instantly. Medical reports validate this as well. That is the vertigo effect I mentioned before. The vertigo effect is not the psychological trauma that it often gets confused with (that is another valid discussion altogether), it is the actual nerve flash to the brain that "overloads" it and causes instant knockouts caused by massive trauma to a nerve junction. More over, there is an addition to this phenomenon: When even minor trauma is inflicted at several major nerve junctions (3 or more) at one time in a human being it has the same effect. It causes instant knockouts on most human beings.

That is what I'd like to somehow develop a reliable test for, not just test the effects of various rounds.
 

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To simulate shooting humans use hogs (but only if legal in your area).
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Glenn Bartley said:
To simulate shooting humans use hogs (but only if legal in your area).
Bacon does sound darn good right about now :p
 

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u r so stupid that you equate EVENTUALLY bleeding out, from a .45 hit, with and INSTANT stop. In 1 second flat, a guy can shoot,stab, or club you 4x, with EITHER hand. So', "only" needing 5-10 seconds to bleed you out makes a load WORTHLESS in a typical pistol defense sort of scenario. You have no CHOICE but to try for lots of shock effect, dumbass. Sure, it can fail, maybe as "often" as 1 time in 10 shootings, but blood loss or loss of organ function is ALWAYS too slow to stop a man.
 

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A ballistic tip IS a softpoint, dumbass, for all practical purposes. At impactThe polymer tip either shatters or is driven back into the soft lead core of the bullet, either expanding or fragging the bullet.
 

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andy said:
A ballistic tip IS a softpoint, dumbass, for all practical purposes. At impactThe polymer tip either shatters or is driven back into the soft lead core of the bullet, either expanding or fragging the bullet.
Actually a ballistic tip has more in common with a hollow point, which is why there is a cavity that is larger than the plastic insert.

The static pressure acts on the cavity as the plastic moves back. The plastic doesn't do as much to open the round. It pretty much behaves like a hollow point and NOT like a soft point.

But that's what you really meant to say - right? I'd hate to think you were wrong, yet again.

:devil:
 

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Strange, I have seen a lot of people shot with FMJ ammunition and they did not react as GunKid describes. There must be factors at work in the real world that he does not take into consideration.
 

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u just ain't seen many shot with ball handgun ammo, that's all, and soldiers are often a LOT easier to stop than some desperado, especially a drunken, or doped up on. With butt heavy spitzer, 2500+ fps rifle ball, the bullet typically yaws a bit in the man's torso, and give the very high levels of energy present with a 3006, even 1/3rd of such power's being transmitted is normally quite enough. That's why a solid hit with a 223 ball rd is normally quite enough, too. A lot of guys who DID really see a lot of guys hit with 30 Carbine ball, especially beyond 100m, were not impressed with its performance, at ALL.
 
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