[andy]

308 ball, 7.7 Jap ball, 8x57 ball. Just ask anybody who saw some REAL action. They will tell you of guys who took chest hits with such rds, and were not immediately stopped, either. As recently as Somalia, cases of 308 failure to stop were noticed, dumbasses. Ball ammo is uniformly POOR. If you "think" 308 ball is so great, shoot a few deer with it, and NOTICE how far they run. It AINT no death ray, either, and the fatique of lugging it around has caused MANY a death. Guys start just foot slogging along, instead of WATCHING like they should.

 

[TODD 3465]

It's called bullet placement <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>.

And tough $hit if you can't carry much weight, poser-boy.

 

[Hard Ball]

The people I shot with .30-06 FMJ promptly fell down and it certainly seemed real at the time.

 

[RIKA]

GK could carry his rifle with those flappy lips without problem.

RIKA

 

[41mag]

IIRC the Somalies chew a plant to get high.Ghat maybe?

Stoned people react different than normal people do.

 

[DJetAce]

And just think of how less effective a 11 inch CAR POS that can't even make 2650 fps with a 55 gr FMJ bullet will do. The CAR is a pos losers gun, it and gunkid are made for each other.

 

[Magnum88C]

The .308 failures in Somalia were also using the SLAP ammo, a saboted, you guessed it, .22 projectile.

 

[Garand]

In reading the book "Blackhawk Down" I distinctly remember the 5.56mm mentioned not stopping the Somolies. Never the 7.62mm NATO.

 

[TM123]

actually in Somalia soldiers were complaining more about the 5.56 being ineffective than anything.Many who could got hold of 7.62 weapons asap.Somalia was the beginning of the end for the 5.56 round in the military.Afghanistan and Iraq strengthened the ineffective issues brought up in somalia, hence the 6.8 round being developed.

Besides melvin, we as civilians aren't limited to ball ammo, so your theory holds no water.90 percent of the ammunition I own is HP or SP.

 

[Hillbilly]

How about YOU?

"Just ask anybody who saw some REAL action."

So, how much action did YOU see?

 

[mrostov]

Shot placement is still key.

The 5.56mm is a LONG ways from dead in the military. In the book Blackhawk Down they mentioned one old man taking 12 hits from a .308 with AP ammo before he went down.

Somolia is not a good case example because all of the opponents were all hyped up on a local amphetemine plant called Qat. None of the locals were feeling pain. A LOT of those 'non-stops' probably died in short order.

There was this one chick that got shot while carrying a basket of RPG rockets across the street. She dropped the basket and went down when she was hit. They kept shooting her but she kept moving towards the basket even though they were visibly blowing chunks off of her body.

Those troops were also using M855 ammo which isn't quite as fragmentary and M193.

The Americans, most of whom were armed with 5.56mm weapons still killed between 500 and 1000 hostiles.

 

[Aslan]

one thing that was not clear, at least to me, was how many of those enemy kia's were from the little birds with their miniguns...

:devil:

 

[CAV]

Military issue 5.56mm ball OR bigger ain't necessarily better

The part that everyone forgets:

There were, and still are, many factors that led to the adaptation of the M16 family of weapons. There is more to the equation than simple "stopping power". Things like historical experience, tissue/wound damage, weight of the basic load, and even the size of ammo cans all figure into military planning considerations. Why focus on irrelevant factors like "single shot" lethality or what this round or that round will do to Bambi during the local deer season? I'm not going hunting (especially as a lone gunman) and trying to put meat on my table. Instead, I'm neutralizing (not necessarily killing) a threat and eliminating his/her ability to effect the outcome of my desired tactical or strategic end state.

My point? Don't make the mistake of trying to solve military problems with civilian solutions. That is the politicians job.

 

[fedupdon]

Ball Ammo

just a quick comment Ball ammo is not made to kill its job is to wound. you remove 3 for ever one you wound it takes 2 to carry the wounded off.Wounded also have a majoe effect on the others

 

[Aslan]

Unless of course the bad guys don't give a damn about their wounded. If the bad guys don't tend to their wounded, then the the 3 for 1 argument is a myth. It only applies when they invest the time, energy and manpower into retrieving their wounded. If all it does is piss them off and make them fight harder, then it has the opposite effect from what we want.

(we can't count on everyone having our set of values...)

:devil:

 

[Magnum88C]

Unless of course the bad guys don't give a damn about their wounded. If the bad guys don't tend to their wounded, then the the 3 for 1 argument is a myth.

Which applies to EVERY enemy we've fought since WWII (and the Japs didn't give a damn about their wounded either).

Just about the only armies this would work on would be us, the Aussies, the Canadians, or the Brits


All the guys out there who think wounding your enemies is a good idea, have at it. For my money, I'll take mine dead, thank you.

 

[fedupdon]

ball ammo

as stated before ball ammo is not for hunting. its was designed to wound not kill .thats why you cannot use soft points in war.the same round in a hunting bullet will stop 98% of the time with bullit placement.i was taught that the only sure kill wasa head shot if no helmet was used.otherwise center mass

 

[Magnum88C]

I don't know of any helmets that will stop a 30'06 at combat distances.

.308 FMJ (NOT AP) will make a .308 hole in and a fist sized hole out of a kevlar helmet at 600 yards. Military 30'06 and military 7.62x51mm are ballistically identical.

The AP rounds will do so beyond where you can hit with them.

 

[BigEd63]

Unless of course the bad guys don't give a damn about their wounded. If the bad guys don't tend to their wounded, then the the 3 for 1 argument is a myth. It only applies when they invest the time, energy and manpower into retrieving their wounded. If all it does is piss them off and make them fight harder, then it has the opposite effect from what we want.

(we can't count on everyone having our set of values...)

:devil:

That's why I have a fair amount of SPEER 125gr "TNT" bullets loaded up in .308. And I just came across a great deal on 500 Rem 180gr SP bullets to load up as well. :dgrin:

Though I love the ability of the FMJ rounds to gp through cover.

 

[Aslan]

I like the 150 gr ballistic tips...

:devil: