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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
that is using jhp factory ammo. While that aint super-great as to general stopping power, it IS stupendously better than a, airweight .38 snub with 158 gr plus p lhps (which is what most people "think" is a top-performing pocket gun) :) That .38 is likely to fail 40x with 100 chest shots. The 9x21 with split noses, maybe 10 in 100x Making an improvement of 300% aint easy, while still being very controllable and a lot more concealable (in a pocket) than any .38 snub, for a fact. The repeat hits come twice as fast with the 45 grs at 2200 fps, 500 ft lb 9x21 than they do with the airweight 38 and the 158 grs, 800 fps, 250 ft lbs load. The split nose load has a recoil-momentum factor of "10", while that of the .38 load is 13. 30% less, while the auto's action and lower line of recoil help with controlability, too. The 9x21 load is AP, the .38 load is nothing of the kind. The Split Nose creates 2 wound-tracks with each hit, the .38 lhp probably won't expand as it passes thru a lung.

So, yes, the pocket 9x21 is a helluva fine pocket gun, but it's not up to the level of stopping power that can be achieved with a .45 Super alloy commander. the pocket gun only has about half the effective range, too, 10 ft as vs 20 ft When you are being shot-at, that's how bad your accuracy is degraded. Sure, with ear protection and slowfire, good light, on a stationary target, from a braced firing position, the pocket 9 will reliably hit a 12"x24" rectangle at 50 yds. But anyone who "thinks" that he's going to shoot even 10% as "well" while being shot at as he does in practice, is deluding himself, very dangerously so. Fortunately, 10 ft of range takes care of justifiable civilian self defense.

any 9x19 luger barrel can have its chamber deepened 2m (about .080") for the 9x21 cartridge. No i am NOT talking about practicing with this load or even this barrel. get a spare barrel, it costs $70, and about as much more will get it re-chambered to 9x21. You can load 9x21 with most 9x19 dies, too. Starline makes the brass for this caliber, cause people shoot it in Italy.

The entire idea for the longer case (and the huge, conical hollowbase cavity) is to have lots more room for powder. when the bullet is this light, chamber pressures are not the problem. the problem is getting enough powder in the case to make the slide cycle reliably. I aint kidding. you have to use Bullseye powder and you have to use so much of it that it will scare the crap out of you (at first). you use the epoxy cored bullets, to save time and money, to work up your load with a 45 gr bullet. and test it adequately to make sure the gun and all mags are reliable with it. you don't need to slit the split nose for feed reliability evals, either (or at least, not many of them). Make the bullet the same length as the 90 gr jhps and load the rd to the same ogive as 9x19 ball ammo, for best feed reliability.

never work up a hot load with a cold gun or in cold weather. Remove the mag, wear heavy gloves and hug a tree to fire the gun, for each 1/2 gr of powder increase. Fire each developemental load over a chrono. If you don't see a velocity increase to go with the powder increase, BACK OFF. having the mag out gives the gases a place to go if a case ruptures. If you're really worried about this, tie down or clamp down the gun and pull the trigger with a string. Look at each fired case for signs of pressure/leaks around the primer, overly bulged cases at the web, or lots of tears/rim bending from extraction/ejection, and for primers that have "flowed", or backed out of the primer-pocket. you dont want to see anything worse than what you see for factory +p 9mm ammo. With such super lw bullets, and with the hollowbase cavity, you wont.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
powder capacity, and to a lesser extent, chamber pressure, vary with the thickness of the case, especially in 9mm. Loads that were OK in Joe's P35, using 160 gr lrn's were NOT ok with 150 gr swc's. The latter bulged cases, especially in the quite thick walled PMC brass. Remember, Joe? the lrn has its weight-increase out where it's not taking up powder space. Thicker brass means less powder space in a tiny case like the 9x19.
 

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Well I guess if you live in Italy or Mexico a 9x 21mm would be a good gun. By the time they came out Melvin, you were in jail so I really doubt you have any practical experience with one. Geez you can't even remember where you placed in the only "big" match that you ever entered. Prove to us that you were even there!
 

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To start:

In a true snubnose, a 9mm+p can exceed a .357 magnum in some cases.

In a 4” gun, a .357 magnum will pretty much always bury a 9mm energy-wise.

The 9x21 has a lower max pressure limit than even a standard 9x19 load, much less a +P 9x19 load.

A maxed-out 9mm+p will exceed a maxed-out 9x21 every time.

To summarize – a 4” .357 revolver is typically more powerful than a 9x19+p; and the 9x19+p is more powerful than the 9x21.


pocket 9x21 hits like 4" 357 that is using jhp factory ammo.
No. The max power you’ll get from a 9x21 (even with a NON-pocket-carry 4” barrel length) is 450-475 ft/lbs, and that’s with max charges of fast powder with extremely light bullets.

A 9x19+P from the same barrel length can hit more than 500 ft/lbs with the same powder and bullets.

A .357 magnum (again, with a 4” barrel) will often break 600 ft/lbs, and with some factory stuff like Buffalo Bore will break 700 ft/lbs.

So no the 9x21 does not “hit like a 4-inch .357 magnum”. Not even close. Unless you think that 450 ft/lbs is as good as 700 ft/lbs.

The 9x21won’t even match a lot of off-the shelf 9mm+p loads, and will NEVER match maxed-out 9mm+P handloads using the same powder and bullets.


any 9x19 luger barrel can have its chamber deepened 2m (about .080") for the 9x21 cartridge.
It can. And make the gun chamber a weaker cartridge in the process. So you’re spending the time & hassle to make your gun not only weaker, but make it now shoot a caliber that you can’t buy ammo for anywhere locally. Well done.

you have to use Bullseye powder and you have to use so much of it that it will scare the crap out of you (at first).
Per QuickLoad, the most Bullseye you can use with a 45-grain bullet in 9x21 is 8.7 grains, which (in a 4” barrel) will run about 2091 fps or 448 ft/lbs. Using 9.2 grains will push that bullet at 2200, but over-pressures the case. And if you’re going to over-pressure your gun, you may as well do it with a 9x19 and get the increased power of the normal round.

For comparison, let’s try running that same bullet, at the same seating depth, with the same powder, in a normal 9mm+P loading. A charge of 8.5 grains of Bullseye will push that bullet at 2171 fps (471 ft/lbs), and do it WITHOUT over-pressuring your gun or cartridge case.

So – absolutely ZERO reason to choose the 9x21 over the 9x19, unless you live in a place where ownership of the 9x19 isn’t possible.


you dont want to see anything worse than what you see for factory +p 9mm ammo.
Again – and I’ve told you this before, John – the pressure limit for 9x21 isn’t just lower than “factory +p 9mm ammo”, it’s lower than NON-plus-p 9mm ammo.

So there you have it again; and I’ll type this slow so you can keep up, the 9x21 is lower pressure and weaker than a 9mm+P is

How can you not bring yourself to simply look up this stuff before you spew your sermons…?


but i have no practical experience.
This one, you got right.
 
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9x21 an split nose dremeled bullets, what a joke. Wonder if the Tard ever seen a 9x21 or just something wandering around inside his head?
 

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Melvin, the real world is not like an IPSC match!
 

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To reiterate/summarize again, in the hopes of prompting a response:
...absolutely ZERO reason to choose the 9x21 over the 9x19, unless you live in a place where ownership of the 9x19 isn’t possible.

...and I’ve told you this before, John – the pressure limit for 9x21 isn’t just lower than “factory +p 9mm ammo”, it’s lower than NON-plus-p 9mm ammo.

So there you have it again; and I’ll type this slow so you can keep up, the 9x21 is lower pressure and weaker than a 9mm+P is

How can you not bring yourself to simply look up this stuff before you spew your sermons…?


...i have no practical experience...
Well there you go; we do agree on some things.
 
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