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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is pretty interesting...


Prefragmented Bullets: Dangerously Inadequate for Personal Defense



MagSafe, Glaser, BeeSafe, Quik-Shok.


These cartridges propel a bullet that is designed to break apart into multiple subcaliber projectiles upon impact with a human body. The theory behind prefragmented bullets (PFB) such as these is the belief: 1) that the bullet will be more effective in stopping a criminal attacker because it very quickly transfers all of its kinetic energy, 2) the multiple subcaliber projectiles create a devastating shotgun-like wound, 3) the multiple penetrating subprojectiles increase the chances of hitting something vital, 4) if the bullet misses the bad guy whom it’s been shot at, it presents less of a hazard to other people because the bullet will disintegrate when it strikes a hard object, and 5) the bullet is unlikely to completely perforate an attacker’s body intact and thus it will be less of a hazard to other people who might be downrange.


PFBs Incapacitate via Rapid Energy Transfer?


Medical professionals who are deeply involved in wound ballistics research have been unable to identify any physiological mechanism in the human body which should cause a person to collapse unconscious after having been shot with a high energy projectile. They’ve found no evidence to support a "neural shock" theory in which a bullet’s temporary cavity (produced by the transfer of bullet energy to soft body tissues) will have a remote effect on the central nervous system that causes an attacker to instantly lose consciousness.


There are examples every day of people who absorb the equivalent or more energy transfer than generated by the impact of any of the handgun bullets listed above and are not knocked unconscious or somehow rendered unable to perform willful actions: a baseball outfielder whose entire upper body crashes onto the playing field after running as fast as possible and lunging with both arms outstretched to make a last second fly ball catch, motor vehicle collisions, police officers who are shot with high energy projectiles but protected by their soft body armor, physical mishaps of all kinds, beating victims, etc.


The blunt force sensation of energy transfer might possibly play a role in producing psychological collapse. The feeling of a hard hitting bullet slamming into his body might cause an attacker to believe that he’s been very seriously hurt. This perception might cause him to voluntarily stop his aggression for survival reasons, or it might produce overwhelming mental distress that causes him to faint. He may even have the preconceived notion that he’s supposed to fall down after being shot because he’s seen actors who portray gunshot victims do this on television and in the movies.


An assailant’s psychological reaction to being shot is unpredictable. An attacker who is psychotic, chemically intoxicated, emotionally disturbed or acting with a very focused determination to cause as much harm as he can before he’s stopped might not show any reaction to being shot and may be totally oblivious to the fact that he has been shot. THE ONLY RELIABLE WAY TO QUICKLY STOP AN ATTACKER IS TO DESTROY TISSUE THAT IS CRITICAL TO HIS IMMEDIATE SURVIVAL.


Multiple Penetrating Projectiles Increase Wound Severity and Chances of Hitting Vitals?


As a PFB disintegrates and the subcaliber projectiles are released to penetrate further, the multiple wound tracks produced by the penetrating fragments weaken the integrity of resilient soft tissues. In the area of maximum temporary cavity, which is usually located within the first 5-6 inches of handgun bullet penetration, these smaller wound tracks can be torn open by the subsequent stretching of soft tissues, worsening the injury. It is important to point out that there will be SOME tearing of soft tissues in the vicinity where the multiple subprojectiles begin to disperse, in the area where their separate wound paths are located close to one another. This added disruption is probably best described as a modest increase in wound trauma. But, due to the shallow location on the wound track where this increased disruption occurs (within the first 5-6 inches of penetration), a PFB is not going provide you any advantage in wounding effectiveness when compared to the wound trauma produced by a conventional JHP bullet that meets IWBA Handgun Ammunition Specifications.


As the small PFB subcaliber projectiles penetrate deeper into soft tissues their velocity decreases. This affects the amount of tissue that is crushed. As a projectile penetrates deeper and slows, it crushes an ever decreasing diameter of tissue in its path. The reason is because as velocity decreases, the ability of soft tissue to simply stretch around the edges of the penetrating projectile to get out of the way increases. In the last few inches of penetration, these subcaliber projectiles are producing extremely narrow wound channels.


To confirm this observation for yourself, you need only look at any of gunwriter Ed Sanow’s photographs (in Handguns magazine) of PFBs shot into blocks of ordnance gelatin. You’ll notice the dye he uses to highlight the gelatin disruption doesn’t seep down the very narrow wound channels produced by the subcaliber projectiles. The narrowness of the individual wound channels is most evident in his photographs of MagSafe bullets. Sometimes a wound channel isn’t visible behind a pellet at all.


Projectile shape also affects the amount of tissue disruption. Spherical shaped shotgun pellets are less efficient in producing wound trauma. The smooth rounded shape allows elastic-like soft tissue to more easily stretch around the projectile, rather than being crushed. The shotgun pellets used in most PFBs produce tiny, pinhole-sized wound channels.


The three irregular-shaped fragment pieces of a Quik-Shok bullet are not aerodynamic, but this doesn’t mean that they’ll tumble end-over-end after they separate and chew their way through flesh. What these subcaliber projectiles do is quickly seek a state of stabilization in dense soft tissue. Once stabilization is achieved, the fragments continue to penetrate in a fixed (non-tumbling) orientation. (Triton is kind enough to publish a photo of their Quik-Shok wound profile in ordnance gelatin on their web site, but unfortunately there’s no measuring device included in the photo to allow interested persons to determine the scale of the disruption. A link to Triton’s Quik-Shok web page is provided at the end of this article.)


Under ideal conditions the multiple projectiles can be very damaging. A PFB that impacts and penetrates the unobstructed upper torso of an attacker will probably produce a severe injury, but so too will a conventional JHP bullet.


However, the dynamics of violent confrontation often produce less than ideal target engagement conditions, and a defender might not have the opportunity to make a perfect, unobstructed shot to the chest or head if shots to the body fail. It’s not uncommon for a bullet to encounter an outstretched arm that is holding a weapon, or for a bullet to be required to negotiate an unusual penetration angle. Both of these scenarios require a bullet that penetrates deeper than the subcaliber projectiles of any PFB to reach and disrupt the vital cardiovascular structures needed to produce fatal hemorrhage that will reliably stop an attacker.


If you hold both your arms out in front of you as if you were holding a handgun in a two handed shooting grip, you’ll observe that a bullet will have to pass diagonally through approximately 4-5 inches of forearm muscle (assuming the bullet doesn’t strike bone) before it exits to penetrate your chest. PFB subprojectiles would have to not only penetrate this much muscle tissue, they would also have to overcome the resistance of the skin to exit the forearm. Skin can present as much of an obstacle to bullet exit as 4 inches of muscle tissue. Although the skin on a forearm probably won’t offer this much resistance to subprojectile exit, it will still subtract from the penetrating potential of each fragment that exits the arm.


A couple of examples of situations where your bullet might have to negotiate an unusually deep, but unobstructed penetration angle include the possibility of being knocked off your feet and having to fire at an attacker who is towering over you, or having to shoot an assailant from the side or an oblique angle through an arm or shoulder while coming to the aid of a loved one who’s under attack.


Finally, it would seem logical that if the number of penetrating projectiles were increased that the chances of hitting something vital would likewise also increase. We’re unaware of any cogent study that has specifically examined PFBs to determine whether or not the multiple projectiles increase the potential for damaging vital tissues. We’re unconvinced there is any advantage due to the few number of subprojectiles released by PFBs, the shallow depth in the wound profile where maximal tissue damage is produced, the uneven penetration distribution of individual fragments and the narrow wound channels crushed by the subprojectiles.


Do PFBs increase the odds of disrupting vitals? This theory is based on the belief that the wide lateral dispersion of the subprojectiles increases the chances that one or more fragments at the outer radius of the distribution pattern will damage a vital organ that would have been missed by a single, large penetrating projectile. But what offsets any advantage gained by this capability is the relative mildness in severity of the resultant wound trauma produced by one or two small fragments that happen to stray into vital tissue. While inflicting a vital wound is the desired and intended goal, tissue damaged in this manner is not going to quickly force an attacker to stop. This capability does not adequately compensate for poor shot placement.


The erratic penetration distribution of PFB subprojectiles can also decrease the overall severity of a vital wound. The deepest penetrating fragments seem to be the ones that penetrate straight ahead. Consider the severity of wound trauma produced by a well placed shot where only one or two deeply penetrating fragments manage to intersect the heart, aorta or vena cava near the end of their wound paths. The holes crushed in the wall of the affected structure will be very narrow in diameter compared to the large single hole crushed by an expanded JHP bullet following exactly the same straight ahead trajectory through the body.


Do PFBs Minimize the Risk of Danger to Others?


Maybe, as long as a PFB penetrates flesh. If a PFB misses the bad guy entirely, it’s no less dangerous to others than a conventional JHP bullet. There’s no guarantee that a stray PFB will hit an intervening obstacle that will stop it or cause it to fragment into smaller, supposedly less dangerous particles. If it does breakup, is there a greater chance that the increased number of ricocheting fragments might strike and seriously injure others who are nearby?


With the exception of the MagSafe SWAT cartridge, PFBs typically remain intact and have the potential to penetrate several layers of plasterboard or other barrier materials such as sheet metal, glass and plywood. PFBs tested against common building materials used to construct dwellings demonstrate slightly less penetrating potential than conventional JHP bullets.


A PFB that hits an assailant off-center along the periphery of his body, producing a short through-and-through wound track that involves only a few inches of tissue penetration before exiting, will probably fragment and be slightly less dangerous to others than a conventional JHP following the same path.


A PFB that hits an attacker’s body squarely will be no less dangerous to others than a conventional JHP bullet that meets IWBA Handgun Ammunition Specifications. In this scenario, it’s highly unlikely that a PFB or a JHP bullet will overpenetrate an attacker’s body. A deep penetrating JHP bullet will most likely be retained inside the attacker’s body by the holdback effect of skin.


Summary


When you target an attacker’s torso with your bullet, the only way your bullet is going to reliably stop him is for it to destroy vital cardiovascular structures which are located deeply in his body. To stop him quickly your bullet must crush a hole in one of these structures to produce blood loss in quantity to force him to collapse unconscious. An attacker must lose at least 20 percent of his blood volume before it begins to affect the functioning of his brain. Therefore, unless you can predict the future with absolute certainty that you will have a clear, unobstructed front to back shot into a attacker’s sternum, the bullet you choose for personal-defense should be capable of inflicting wound trauma that promotes rapid fatal hemorrhage from any engagement angle.


PFBs do not give you this level of capability. The area of greatest tissue destruction produced by PFBs is located at a point that is too shallow in the wound track to reliably include blood bearing organs when less than ideal conditions are encountered.


The last few inches of a bullet’s wound track are the most important because this is where it is most likely to encounter vital tissues. The large expanded diameter of a deeply penetrating JHP bullet is going to produce much greater wound trauma when it passes through the heart or a major abdominal blood vessel than the subcaliber fragments of a PFB. Blood loss in volume to have an effect is going to take time. The single, larger diameter JHP wound will facilitate faster blood loss than the constricted wound channels crushed by PFB subprojectiles.


PFBs are less hazardous to bystanders than JHP bullets in theory only. However, if you keep a handgun for home defense and you’re concerned about wall penetration, then the MagSafe SWAT cartridge is the only choice that meets your requirements for limited wall penetration. None of the other cartridges discussed in this article are designed to fragment as they pass through wallboard. The tradeoff for this limited penetration of interior walls is significantly lessened wounding effectiveness.


For concealed carry, if you live in a jurisdiction that outlaws JHP bullets and you’d feel more comfortable loading your gun with a PFB instead of non-expanding ammunition, the non-hollowpoint design BeeSafe might be worth considering.


Bullet selection for personal defense should be directed toward choosing one that possesses the qualities that will make it effective over a wide range of scenarios because this will increase your chances of survival when the unusual happens. The most important quality is penetration because a handgun bullet cannot damage what it does not touch. If the bullet you shoot into an attacker’s body doesn’t pass through a major blood bearing organ, there’s no reason why your bullet should suddenly compel him to stop whatever he’s doing that’s endangering your life or the life of a loved one.


Despite the marketing claims of the companies who manufacture these bullets and the assertions of gunwriters who are preoccupied with velocity and energy transfer, PFBs do not reliably penetrate deeply enough nor produce the kind of wound trauma that is needed to quickly and reliably stop a determined attacker, and this is why we feel they’re dangerously inadequate for personal defense.




:devil:
 

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the junk ones, made of dust or tiny birdshot, yes. The Split Nose was created to overcome those failings. when the 2 frags split off of the nose (at the grease-groove) the nose heavy (big hollowbase) rear frag becomes a full wadcutter. Maybe you THINK that a 40 gr , HARD wadcutter .45 bullet, (at 2300 fps) aint going to penetrate deep enough? :) all you have to do is hold an 8" thick dog in front of your chest, and let me shoot the dog, on a line with your chest. According to the dumbass asswipe, you will be perfectly safe. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Scarecrow, scarecrow,scarecrow.

Too bad you are so afraid of dogs that you have to post about shooting them whenever possible.

There's so many funny things in your post.

For example: At the point where your bullet falls apart, it is not traveling 2300fps.

As for the rest, well, there you go again. What is it like to have such a complete disconnect from reality?

Nice try, but you are still an idiot.

:devil:
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
BTW, did you catch the part about energy transfer - you might want to read it in detail. Once again, you are shown to be totally wrong about it.

Hey, Scarecrow, one more thing you should take note of - this is called providing proof about claims. Independant analysis that supports a position.

For some reason, everyone can find collaborative documentation to shows your theories to be BS, but you are yet to find one thet either shows us to be FOS, or you to not be FOS.

Just some things to think about...

(BTW, this is where you insult me and threaten me with harm)

:devil:
 

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He keeps failing the peer review process. You know, the one where people look at your research, independently test it to confirm it, and verify that it isn't 100% USDA certified BULLSHIT.
 

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ok, come on over, bring the dog, and we'll peer review the hole out of your BACK, dumbass. I"ll piss on your face as you lay there, in stupid disbelief. I have DONE this stuff, and all you are is MOUTH, punk.;
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
That's nice scarecrow.

:devil:
 

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Aslan, that is one of the best posts I have read anywhere, BAR NONE.

And as usual code name SCARCROW, aka NUTTY JOHN, has to show his less than astute, ability, to read and comprehend facts.

Then it's always the brutality to the dog. I am begining to think that prison is not the place for the outhouse mind of NUTTY JOHN, I think a segregation facility, in a mental hospital, may be the only place that the public would be safe from scarcrows insane outbursts.
 

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andy said:
ok, come on over, bring the dog, and we'll peer review the hole out of your BACK, dumbass. I"ll piss on your face as you lay there, in stupid disbelief. I have DONE this stuff, and all you are is MOUTH, punk.;
Another nice post to send to Mike Fischer. Thats a nice TARD ...

You can't conduct a peer review Scarcrow -- all of you peeers are in prison.
 

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Wylycoyte said:
He keeps failing the peer review process. You know, the one where people look at your research, independently test it to confirm it, and verify that it isn't 100% USDA certified BULLSHIT.
Hey scarecrow, this is a nice post about you -- make sure you read this with comprehension.
 

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andy said:
ok, come on over, bring the dog, and we'll peer review the hole out of your BACK, dumbass. I"ll piss on your face as you lay there, in stupid disbelief. I have DONE this stuff, and all you are is MOUTH, punk.;

Make up some wetpack, shoot your shit, post pics of the results. Or is that too difficult to manage?

You can claim you've done this all you want. I can claim I saw Elvis in a Burger King in Memphis. It doesn't mean shit unless its documented and repeatable.
 

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andy said:
ok, come on over, bring the dog, and we'll peer review the hole out of your BACK Is this a threat from you to actually shoot aslan? Brt your PO would be quite interested in that one.




, dumbass. I"ll piss on your face as you lay there, in stupid disbelief. I have DONE this stuff, and all you are is MOUTH, punk.;
All in all what you have done is sold poison (which you are quite proud of) Jailed for and proven to us time and time again that DRUGS RAVENGE THE BRAIN.

In retrospect if it really came down to putting your money were your mouth is you would get yourself "perished" in short order. Honestly you really have no clue about anyone here on this site, but yet everyone here has you pegged and knows all about you. You sit behind a keyboard and piss and shit and live in a dream world while the rest here focus on reality. You really should change your user name to "freakshow" that would be much more accurate in terms of description. I am curious have you figured out what mountain range you are in yet? The again you probably have no clue as to what planet you are on so that is probably a mute point.


The Jist of it is you think you can't be touched well freakshow you are wrong.
 

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andy has always failed in peer review.

Now if we are talking REAR REVIEW? I hear his read gor a lot of good reviews in prison. Hey andy how many smokes did Babe your cell lover sell a turn in your ass for?
 

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Like I said before, let's get a large dog to hold John in front of his chest and we'll test the loads if they don't penetrate, we'll admit John's right.
 

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lol i have visited that site many times always come away with something new.

by the way

lets not put a dog in front of duffus.

if it has to be a dog...how bout a hotdog w/o the bun.
sean
 

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You mean like one of those weiner dogs that "yip, yip, ypi" all day? Or maybe one of the little rat-puppies that CowardKid plans to take for SHTF?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
hipster,

The scarecrow is just trying to sound tough, it's all he has to fall back on whenever someone presents facts.

He is incapable of intelligent discussion, and when cornered offers threats. It's a clear sign that he knows he is wrong but cannot accept it.

Like I've always said, it's funny how much information exists that shows him to be FOS, but he is yet to find ANY that supports his claims.

He's threatened to kill me and my family before...

I'm sure there's enough official interest in him now - it won't be long.

:devil:
 

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just feeling left out

I just went on a rant I am feeling left out of the group as he has yet to insult me or threaten me like he has most others here on the site. I guess I am feeling caught in the middle not so much part of the whole and most defiantly not like him. I figured a few straight rights and a couple of elbows would get him fired up but as always he runs away and hides. Oh well better luck next time I guess, long day time for a nice scotch on the rocks anyone care to join me?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I do however, suspect that the whole "pissing on the face" thing is something he has fond memories of receiving while in jail.

So now he's just trying to include others in his homosexual fantasies...

:devil:
 
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