[Terry G]

As Veteran's Day approaches, I of course, think back on my own experiences. One member of the Forum spoke on how ridiculous the Hague and Geneva Conventions were concerning the making of war. He has a good point. Your forbidden to use soft point or hollow point 5.56MM rifle ammunition, but it's quite permissable to shoot your enemy in the face with a 40MM grenade. Very true. However, his thought's on treatment of enemy prisoners, wounded or whole don't match up with the American rationale. I think it's simple . How would you wanted to be treated if taken prisoner? An enemy Soldier is an honorable man. He believes he is fighting for Hanoi or Bagdahd, just as you feel your fighting for St. Louis or Hamtramck. He has a right to be treated by a fellow soldier and as a human being. If he's wounded, treat him. If he's hungry feed him. If he's thirsty give him water. This "Torturing to get information" is BULLSHIT. The average Grunt does not know shit that will be helpful to you. You start doing things like abusing prisoners and you will get fewer and fewer prisoners. Who is going to surrender if they know they are going to be tortured if captured? Ask the Marines in WWII. Another thing is you lose control of your men. Brutality causes loss of discipline. On a sweep in 1969, my Platoon Sergeant and I came upon a SP/4 in the process of cutting the ear of a dead NVA. The PS locked the man's heel's, (brought him to attention) and proceeded to tear verbal strips off the man. He sent him forward on the sweep, sat down and motioned for me to take a seat. I'll never forget it. He said "G, You can't let these men get out of control. If you let one thing like that happen you'll lose discipline. And once you lose discipline, you don't have a fighting unit, you have an armed mob. Your a young NCO, and just started in this business, but you have to know something. There is nothing, and I mean nothing, more savage and dangerous than a 19 year old American Soldier. They have been regimented all their lives. Church, School, Family, they follow rules all their lives. Then they get to this shithole, and they figure all rules are off. We can't let that happen. They do one thing that you think is wrong, you jump in their ass with both feet. Now Article 15 that asshole, that's not an order, a reccomendation." I did.

 

[Temujin]

I truly understand where you are coming from, Terry; however, I truly do not believe that brutality causes loss of discipline. Perhaps the most perfect example of this is the history of Ghengis Khan.

He made Hitler look like a devout man of faith, a true saint, in terms of brutality. No one - no one - throughout the entire history of man was more brutal than him, nor has there ever been a man feared like Ghengis Khan.

Why?

He knew the true and proper way to crush the enemy on the front lines is to first crush their hearts and minds. He used nearly unspeakable torture and brutality to accomplish this.

And -

There has never, ever been an army as disciplined or as skilled as his. He never lost; he and his well disciplined army annihilated absolutely all who stood in his way. People of many nations at the time would commit mass suicide to escape the wrath of Khan when they heard he and his crew were riding in.

Why?

Khan was brutality incarnate. He, his army and his people were discipline incarnate as well.

I do agree, in part, with what you stated about the average grunt not knowing shit. A grunt may not know things that will lead to an immediate victory in war, but he sure as hell may know things that turn the tide of a present battle. The quality of information attained via enemy grunts is only as valuable as the people percieve it is who are attaining it. Oft times it is very small things that can turn the tide of battle one way or another.

How I want to be treated if I were a prisoner is irrelevant in my opinion. The fact is that those you just captured were trying to put an end to your life and your comrades lives just now -- them being honorable is true, but in my eyes, again, highly irrelevant. Whatever I can do to win in the most efficient and fastest way possible is all I'm concerned about. All else is "just details." An enemy trying to kill you is just an enemy trying to kill you; whether they are honorable or not should not matter. I think it is honorable to use every known method, including torture, to save my own comrades and fellow countrymen.

As I said, my views may be far too extremist; I don't know. It is just what I believe.

 

[KJUN]

My favorite quote of all time comes from General Stonewall Jackson when he came up[on some CSA soldiers letting some Yankee men retreat after they had fought well, but lost the just completed fight. Stonewall asked why they were letting them retreat instead od still attacking them. The soldiers replied that they had fought bravely and deserved to not be killed. Stonewall replied "I don't want them brave - I want them dead!"

KJ

 

[Aslan]

G. Khan was all of those things. He was also ALWAYS AT WAR, never at peace.

Think about that for a minute.

Brutality and ruthlesness is not something that you simply turn on and turn off. Train people that the only way to settle an argument is by who's left alive and you are asking for trouble.

If we were to go the brutal route, then our FIRST option would be to simply nuke our enemies. If we really wanted to only defeat bin laden and the taliban, we could have turned Afganistan into a nuclear wasteland without spending a single US life doing so.

We would have won using the most brutal means at our disposal. No survivors. None. Civilian, military, wouldn't matter.

It would have been over the day it started.

Of course the rest of the world would have been pretty pissed at us - much like they were at G. Khan.

:devil:

 

[ASPHALT COWBOY]

I fully agree with you Aslan, when we lower ourselves to barbaric levels we surrender our humanity.

 

[andy]

u can be all "honorable" in your grave, nobody will care.

 

[Aslan]

According to my beliefs, the most important judge of all will care...

:devil:

 

[Ankeny]

Amen to that.

 

[Wylycoyte]

Since I'm one of those heathen agnostic types, I'll just add...

whether there's a God above or not, I still have to look myself in the mirror every morning. I'd rather carry my honor and integrity intact to my grave, thanks.

 

[Aslan]

Amen to that too.

:devil:

 

[SatCong]

Good parenting tends to bestow such values.
SatCong

 

[John in AR]

While I can understand the "torture them for information" in an amoral, Mr. Spock kind of way, I don't agree with it.

On the battle field, an enemy combatant is a threat, and fair game. Once captured, if he's no longer a threat, how is it "ok" to kill someone who's no threat...? Anyone who accepts that premise gives up their right to be offended when some Iraqi chops off a captured American soldier's head on camera; because that's all they're doing, killing a captured enemy.

Personally, I want to reserve the right to be pissed when I see that.

 

[KJUN]

Personally, I want to reserve the right to be pissed when I see that.

I agree. I also choose to be offended that we live in a society that tries - and kills - ex-Nazi soldiers who were following orders, but allows a US "peace keeper" to go unharmed for shooting an innocent woman near Ruby Ridge because he "can't be tried for following orders." Of course, I'm still piussed that Sheridan wasn't tried for war crimes, too.

KJ

 

[John in AR]

Exactly right. Forget his name, (some oriental sounding name) but that agent shot an unarmed woman holding a baby. He should have been tried; the "following orders" defense is a shabby excuse for thuggery.

That's the basis of my point: she was no threat, so shooting her was wrong.

 

[Magnum88C]

Horiuchi, Lon Horiuchi.

 

[RIKA]

And Lon Horiuchi lives and flourishes protected by our government.

RIKA

 

[Terry G]

And Lon Horiuchi lives and flourishes protected by our government.

RIKA

Horiuchi is an unfeeling asshole to shoot a unarmed woman with a baby in her arms. But what worse is that he was given ORDERS to do this. How come his higher ups weren't hung out to dry for this? I noticed the written orders were "misplaced" yeah, sure. I've worked in Federal Service long enough to know that copy after copy is made of everything. A shoot to kill order wouldn't be documented?

 

[John in AR]

I agree, Terry. Even here in BFE Arkansas, all phone calls in & out of the dept, along with every radio transmission on our frequencies and any frequencies we monitor, are digitally recorded; much less tracking of written orders.

The "misplaced" excuse is thin.

 

[andy]

Horinuchi SAID he shot weavers wife by accident, he was firing at the fleeing Weaver and Harris. She had stepped out on the porch (rather stupidly) to hurry the men into the house. Like they were being SHOT-at, and WEREN'T running as fast as they could, or what?

 

[andy]

shtf, there's no resources to watch prisoners, and if you turn them loose, they have no CHOICE but to try to prey upon you or somebody else. So a whack in the back of the head with the Skatchet is about it as far as options go.