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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
According to Sir Issac Newton, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If our action is firing a bullet, then the reaction is the recoil.

Let:

mb = mass of bullet

mg = mass of gun

Vb = velocity of bullet

Vg = velocity of gun

The starting equation would then seem to be: mg*Vg = mb*Vb

But, wait, there's more.

The mass and velocity of the powder (mp and Vp respectively) has some effect. Since the velocity of the powder gases can be approximated as 1 1/2 times the velocity of the bullet, our equation applied to a non-auto becomes...

mg*Vg = (mg + 1.5mp)*Vb

With an auto, recoil is not a simple relationship. An auto acts as two or more separate masses with time delays during the recoil process.

First consider:

mbbl = mass of barrel

ms = mass of slide

mf = mass of frame

Vs = Vbbl = velocity of slide equals velocity of barrel while they are together

Vf = velocity of frame

For example a 1911 converts what would be one big "whump" in a revolver into two smaller whumps; the barrel hitting the frame and the slide hitting the frame. Some energy also goes to compressing the recoil spring but we can neglect it for now. Applying this to auto's gives us something like this:

(mbbl+ms)*Vs = (mg + 1.5mp)*Vb

Of course the slide ends up whacking the frame like two billiard balls in an almost perfectly elastic collision. For the larger of the two "whacks" this gives us:

ms*Vs = mf*Vf

Vf plays a big role on what our hand feels.

Vf = ms*Vs / mf

or...

Vf = [((mg+1.5mp)*Vb/Vs) - mbbl]*Vs/mf

Vs = [(mg + 1.5mp)*Vb] / (mbbl+ms)

While this all seems simple enough it doesn't tell us the whole story. To reach greater velocities requires greater peak pressures. Even if these pressures show no sign of gun failure, they may be propagating cracks throughout high stress areas of the gun. Even if the pressures are plenty safe, high slide velocities (Vs) can pound the slide against the frame, battering the gun.

Wear is a usually a function of force or pressure cubed. Double the pressure and you increase the wear on the gun eightfold! In other words, hot loads can wear out a nice gun a lot quicker than normal loads.

Hope this helps...GB
 

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Thank you GB. The wear factor is one consideration. Very important from a safety standpoint and one that our friend completely ignores.

I assume that there is now way for a layman to tell when his overloaded, overstressed gun is getting ready to explode.

RIKA
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Magnafluxing or some other similar crack detecting method can find the cracks. The severity of cracks is normally measured by their widths. You can also use a microscope to measure the cracks.

The best way to avoid damage to your gun is to use only the recommended loads and pressures. The amount and placement of metal, as well as the heat treatment, in your gun were selected to function reliably with one specific power level. If a shooter wants more power, then they should consider a different gun.
 

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So who said to shoot such loads a LOT, hmm? Since the 460 Split Nose load recoils JUST like .45 ball, all you have to do is PRACTICE with .45 ball, and CARRY the 460 load. Simple, but it's beyond YOUR level of practical cognition (obviously)

Hell,since you guys aint even any good with a mere 9mm, what's your argument ABOUT, concerning loads with heavier recoil, hmm? you can't even control the .45 properly, so the whole debate is way beyond any meaning for you. You are slow with ANY load. Speed of repeat hits is really only an issue for those who at least KNOW what such speed IS.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
223 fan said:
Since the 460 Split Nose load recoils JUST like .45 ball, all you have to do is PRACTICE with .45 ball, and CARRY the 460 load. Simple, but it's beyond YOUR level of practical cognition (obviously)
Recoil that your hand feels and the impact of the gun's parts against one another are two different things.

Using your own numbers:

90% of all defensive encounters do not require a shot.

You claim that your load is 100% effective.

You admit that .45 JHP Hydroshocks, Brass Sabres, etc. are effective about 80% of the time.

Therefore, your own numbers suggest that a .460 Rowland is better than a standard pressure .45 JHP only 1 out of 50 times!

Why ruin your gun for a 1 in 50 chance? Hmm?
 

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Its my understanding that most successful IPSC Masters stress the importance of practicing with the same load that you are going to use in a match! Just my $0.02 worth. Oh and gunkid, since marksmanship is a perishable skill, practicing does make you more proficient with your chosen handgun. :puke02:
 

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u r simply a liar. I've never made ANY claim that

ANY handheld load, to INCLUDE 308 sp's, is a 100 % effective manstopper, and I've NEVER said how effective hydroshoks or golden sabres, or similar bs loads are. 80% means 20 failures in 100 shootings. If, as I do believe, the 460 Split Nose is as effective as a 223 sp,it fails about 1-2 times in 100 shootings. That makes it 10-20 x as effective as those bs "80% loads". Just because YOU flunked math doesn't mean everyone did, ya know.
 

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as I have said, because you dont need to fire more than 105 of the time, IF you get the gun OUT in time, and because a good chest hit with a .22 is about 50% likely to make the guy QUIT (NOT the same thing as a physical incapacitation), and because a truly skilled, alert, aware man can make head shots with a good .22, at least most of the time, the 22 will suffice 95% of the time,IF you are such a skilled, alert, aware man, which 99.99% of the public is NOT. THAT'S what I said.
 

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"you dont need to fire more than 105 of the time"

GK is trying to say something here, but what?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
GK, you just proved my point for me.

You said that you only need to shoot less than 10% of the time.

You also said that a .22 can be effective 50% of the time when you shoot, hence the .22 is good for 95% of all defensive encounters.

By your logic, the .460 is better than a .22 only 5% of the time, 1 out of 20 defensive encounters. Surely you would agree that a .45 JHP is more effective than a .22, right?
 

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Good stuff, GB! I'm impressed!
The only real speed old YS (yellowstripe) has is when he fires back a post after someone proves him wrong once again. :D And that's ALL the time, no?

1911sr
 

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What I SAID, liar, is that only one man in 10,000 has the requisite alertness, awareness, and ability to make the .22 suffice HALF of the time, if you actually HAVE to shoot, and it's only a viable option if it's a POCKETABLE .,22, learn to READ, and quit TRYING to put words in my mouth. You fail at it, UTTERLY.

For normal civvie ccw, the POCKET .22 is just as practical as is a full size and wt 1911, full of .45 ball. You will be so slow to access the 1911,most of the year, that it won't be "in play" soon enough, and .45 ball is only slightly better at stopping men, with chest hits, than is a good ..22 hp. The stupid false confidence that goes with "thinking' a 1911, and being SLOW with it, and having nothing better than ball ammo (or 230 gr, non-plus p jhp's) in it is WORSE than being a highly skilled man with a pocket .22.

For instance, I could let garnad draw FIRST, if he had a fastened winter coat and a sport coat over his 1911, and my hands were at my sides, M21 in my coat pocket. It'd take him at LEAST 2 full seconds to fire a wild, one handed hip shot, and by then, I'll have put 2-3 22's into his HEAD. :)
 

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Oh good grief! You never have nor ever WILL "draw" on anyone. Talktalktalk, YS. Just talk. Do you impress yourself? You're all alone.

1911sr
 

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Only in your fantasies, wannabe.
 

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LOL, he has to have you in a winter coat, with a second garment to get out of the way before his "fast draw" has a chance. . .LOL
 
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