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Discussion Starter #1
I'm looking for suggestions on SHTF/Home Defense/Combat. There's plenty of info on what rounds to use for survival and hunting. I've also heard good info on wound potential and avoiding over pentration. I'm especially curious about more exotic rounds.

I see a plain need for Buckshot. (Feel free to toss in why you like 00 or #1 ect)

Buck and Ball I'd like to try out. Has pentration (for when you need it like in overgrowth) and spread in one package.

Flare I can see using like tracers for signaling.

Has anyone used CS shells? How many do you need to do any good in a room or outside in say a steep narrow creek bed? Are these praticle?

Anyone exprienced with grenade shells? These seem to be really useful for shotgun machine guns only but I'm curious.

Finnally, anyone experinced with saboted shells? I've heard a good amount of talk about the AP qualities of the lowly shotgun loaded right.
 

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HA,HA,ROCK-ON!,,,'little-sister',,,as MY MOST 'devastatingly WAR-HEADS are coming straight outta' WASHINGTON
D.C.'!,,,,and where?,,,[PREY-TELL],,,is a stupid shotgun gonna' STOP-THAT!!!


I tried,,nay!!!,,,I screamed ABOUT the "THE 'LEFT-LURCH' of 'obama' as president"!,,,and my "FELLOW-MEMBERS/ONE-IN-ALL,,,'simple-frickin'-sheep'.

[brass hammers,! 'note': I've already gave OVER $500 to the R.N.C. this year alone.,,,WHERE THE FVCK ARE YOU?.]
 

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As of late, I've been testing various buck loads (00,000,#4 buck, BB) with two shotguns. Ben. tactical and an Ithica 37. I have both a long (28 inch) and short barrel (20) for the Ithica, short (18) only for the Ben....all smooth bores.

At very close ranges (inside the home) anything larger than BB would be extreme over kill for my pair. (ever try shooting a 2x6 at 15 feet with mag BB? Nasty.) I fear the buck loads could over penetrate for inside the home defense and may take out more than the intended target...

For the two shotguns I have, anything over thirty yards gives a pretty large pattern with buck loads from the short slug barrels. Any of the buck loads I shot would be a decent choice for point and shoot or running while shooting at thirty yards or less. #4 buck (more pellets) keeps more shot on target at thirty yards. The longer barrel was a little better, but I didn't put many down range with it. The last time I was out, I did find one 000 Remington load that was very tight at thirty yards. I bought about 20 boxes (on sale) but only took one with me and the scientific part of testing had given way to blasting fun....I'm going to test that one a little more.

I've never tried the sabots...Slug performance from either of my shotguns with every brand of slug I tried was very good. The Ithica will do the job at 100 yards but the Benelli has a big advantage with better sites that allow me to produce tighter groups...much faster. I was really impressed with the reduced recoil slugs. Couldn't tell you about anything beyond 100 yards, another tool would be a better choice for me.

I'm not a fan of 'buck and ball'. IMO you either want more pellets for point and shoot or one pellet, well placed. To each their own....
 

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for use in the home what you really need to use is 7 1/2'S, 8's or 9's. at closr range such as in the house the small shot will basically act like a large 1 to 1 1/2 oz slug on soft target, while the small shot size will cut down on penetration. anything larger then 6 shot will go through a sheet rock wall with ease. small shot size if you close enough it will penetrate most everything it comes in contact with like doors and walls.
 

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Hell, I WANT penetration. Years back I was at a gunshop in Virginia and they had an interesting display there. Three steel plates, maybe 3/16s thick or so. The top one was hit by regular lead buck shot. Had some small dents in it, and that was all. The second one was hit but steel buck. Much deeper dents, but no penetration. The third one was hit by tungsten loads, and every projectile just drilled right on through the plate. I bought two cases of the tungsten stuff. :evilgrin: My thoughts on the matter were that the better the penetration, the more effective it will be at further ranges.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Discarding Buck and Ball from the "combat loads"

I’m beginning to see the light about buck and ball. I’ll still pick up a few to try (and dragon’s breath and other fun stuff) but right now if my shot isn’t getting far enough in the brush I need a different type of shot not one huge ball in with it. I mean if I don’t want anything to stop it I should use a slug and then what’s the point of having a “shot”gun? Might as well move into a real rifle in 30.06 with 5 to 8 times the range. Having different sizes just complicates estimating your range and pattern on a target. I haven’t actually found any claims on wound potential. I can imagine a lot of pros and cons depending on your load and your accuracy. I’d rather give each piece of buck the chance for success in a vital area.

Getting some good info on "in the house but not through it" along with getting range and penetration with shot you have (presumable outdoors against a hostile).
 

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out doors applications are much different, then use indoors. out doors you want range, penetration and the ability to shoot consistent groups. indoors all of that is out and you don't want to have any hard target penetration, because your kids mite be in the room behind where you are shooting. for outdoors work just plain old buck shot will suite you best, be it 0,00,00,000, or bb's. bigger shot than bb's has it's advantages but the bigger you go with shot size the less shot you get per round. in shtf conditions bad guys wearing bp-vests is not as likely as bad guys using leather plate like was used in the late 1800's, or no protection at all. but your right about the 30/06 the whole idea with a rifle is not to let the bad guy get close enough to have to use the shotgun in the first place.
 

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Unalist it appears you are trying to have one "do it all round" for part of the discussion and at other times multiple different rounds. RIKA offered great advice in the "Box O' Truth" website. They have tested some of the myths and realities of the shotgun by shooting them at controlled distances at well planned targets. If you want to know about the difference between OO Buck and #7 bird you can see some accurate testing. You can see what the spread of the patterns are at certain distances. I understand your shotgun will perform a little differently than their testing, but that is what practice is for: to learn the limitations and abilities of you and your equipment.

All that said, for short range home defense I recommend 00 Buck, the idea is to kill your target, not to maim, wound or just piss it off. You would be surprised what a beligerent drunk or drugged up idiot is capable of taking. If you are talking about a longer duration, post apocalytic type period, you might want some slugs for longer ranges and more accurate placed fire and some lighter loads like #6s and 7s for birds and game. My personal preference though is to use a .22 for the smaller game and a larger rifle with more easily available ammo like .30-06. I know some people think that only .223 and 7.62 X 39 MM russian ammo will be available, but the .30-06, .308 and probably .270 and .30-30 are the most easily rounds in sporting goods stores around the country.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
My conclusions

Grumpysfc,

RIKA was on it with Box O' Truth. Great stuff. (thanks again) Anyone reading this thread looking for tested gun info needs to pay a visit there.

I'm looking to narrow down the varieties in my SHTF stock pile. Beyond bird and buckshot and hunting slugs I've been looking at exotics one at a time.

What I noticed recently is that Armor Piercing Saboted shells claim 1/4" or 100mm pentration. Even if I accept that on face value I'd only be getting the equivalent of the M61 (7.62x51mm NATO). Since shotguns generally lose accuracy and power beyond that I might as well get a better AP round (M80 ect) and a magazine fed rifle (M1A/M14, FAL, ect).

Back on subject the only thing besides various Bird and Buckshot,slugs I'm planing to store is small quantities of tracer buck (to teach my kids with in my old break over not my defence shotgun on a private range with fire precautions ) and flares (I imagine I might want/need to signal someone).
 

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Some Ball & Buck loads can be very effective for defense/offense in an outdoor setting. For one to work right, it has to be loaded correctly, and I haven't seen any Factory loads that are.

Tri-Ball loads, either Dixie Slugs' offering or handloaded.

Slugs or single Ball. Factory slugs are good, but soft. A handloaded slug or RB can be cast harder for better penetration.

Lots of 00 Buck.

Whatever you get, shoot some through abny gun you intend to use it in, see that it hits what you mean for it to.

DC
 

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Discussion Starter #12
time to move on to another phase of answering this question

Academic research is over. Now it's time to get some actual shells to put through the shotgun. I’m going with Federal #1 buck (for inside my house) and Federal 2 ¾-inch #00 for everywhere else. Buffered, plated, hardened (tungsten), magnum and reduced recoil offer enough options to play with. (Dropped the flare shells, but going to keep the tracer shells to teach the kids) Time to see if my chioces are right for me. I always recall carrying a Mossberg590 down range. It was a descent piece of machinery but it didn’t feel right for me.
 

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I carry an 870 police with 2 3/4 remington sluggers or remington 2 3/4 00 9 pellet buck.
 

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I've been using hornady sabots at around 1950 to 200fps with grewat accuracy out to about 190yds however ihave found this only with rifled slug barrels as the soft slugs tend to foul the bore and require a great deal of cleaning before the accuracy returns
 

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Interesting situation for those of us that regularly use older shotguns, My 1945 Winchester Trench Gun has ended up in the gunsmiths twice this year, for new parts because I decided that I wanted to get a bit more performance with the gun with Federal Classic #4 Magnum Shot. While I can go with this ammo and other buckshot rds in some of my newer SxS's I need to do some research on other loads.

No, I'm not going to buy a new toy, the ones that I have now see 650-750 rds through them a year and I don't have the time to replicate that number in another shotgun that I'm not as familiar with as the M97. Thats probably why I have 3 of them.
 
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