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Discussion Starter #1
Can someone give me a definition on this?

If you turn a black guy down for a job because he is black, that is discrimination, right? But if you turn a white guy down for a job, that is "reverse" discrimination? What is the deal with that? I would have thought that was also just discrimination.

Here's what I think "reverse" discrimination should be:

1. Not discriminating.

2. Hiring a black guy because he is black.

As I understand it, the popular definition of "Reverse Discrimination" is to deny a white person something based on the fact that they are white?

I think the spin doctors came up with this term to try to make discriminating against a white person different, or not as bad, somehow, as discriminating against a black person.

"Reverse", my arse. There isn't anything reverse about it.
 
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Discussion Starter #2
My understanding of the term has been that it's used for situations where a bonus is granted to an individual, making it more likely that they will succeed in whatever endeavor they may be attempting, based off of things such as; race and ethnicity, religion, gender, age, disabilities or economic background...

So in theory it means it's not technically discriminating against that eighteen to forty five middle class white male... it's just making things easier for everyone else, which has the same ultimate effect but it can be hidden inside a lot of rhetoric about how it's not damaging anyone...

I've most often seen the term applied to things such as civil service entrance exams or college application procedures, where "Minority" groups, many of whom are not all that minor or even make up a localized majority, are given something akin to bonus points in order to help them succeed. Supposedly this is leveling out economic and social factors that might have impeded the minority individuals from gaining the same advantages as... well, as white males as I understand it.

Which is why a seventy year old asian women in a wheel chair stands a better chance of becoming a fireman than a young, fit white guy. (Obviously a bit of a joke, but you get the point).

It's been an issue of debate for years now, with the Yuppicrats falling back on really poor arguments, but the sort that it becomes difficult to publicly debate... statements that essentially amount to "Don't you WANT african americans to be able to attend college?!" when that's really not the issue at all anymore. It gained a lot of popular press a few years back because a number of highly qualified college applicants were denied entrance to a few universities when less qualified applicants (from an academic standpoint) were accepted because "Bonus points" were given to minority students so the colleges could comply with affirmative action rules.

It was brought up not too long ago when Dubbya spoke out against the practice, calling it incorrect and illegal.

I happen to agree with him on that count... it's really just a different sort of discrimination, rather than holding individuals back because of factors they have no control over, it grants bonuses... so it doesn't sound as bad when it's spoken aloud, but the end result is the same... a single group ends up being shafted because of a factor about themselves that they have no control over.

It's just the sort of thing that most politicians shy away from changing, even when they know it's wrong, because the second they speak out against it, there's that giant cockroach Jesse Jackson calling them a Nazi on TV.
 
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Discussion Starter #3
Discrimination is discrimination, regardless if it's 'reverse', forward, sideways or up-side-down! But... it only applies to certain circumstances. There is discrimination against and discrimination in favor of.

Case in point.. I went in to a music store recently and was overwhelmed with all of the signs and labels on the racks of CD's that stated "BLACK MUSIC WEEK." Well, I don't know about anyone else (please enlighten me if you have any insight,) but I didn't realize that music had a color! I knew there was Blues, Rock & Roll, Jazz, Country, Classical and 'ethnic' music, to name a few, but I had never heard of "BLACK MUSIC."

But you can be darned sure that you will NEVER see anything that is labeled "WHITE MUSIC!" Jeez.. people would be rioting in the streets of San Francisco over it claiming it was discrimination! Go figure...

:uzi: purple music
 
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Well, I live in mississippi... and we see it all to often,,,, now I am gonna start out saying, I have never owned a slave,,,, And never will,,, but down here, I hear that we should pay Slavery reparations to the surviving children of slaves,,, there are 2 completely black colleges here, and I mean completely black.You don't get extra points for being white and wanting to go there, Yet if you want to go to Miss State, you get an additional 10 points on there grading scale just for being black,,, The mayor of jackson, said on state wide tv.. " I would be very upset if Jackson had a white police chief" Now if anyone said, the same but with a black police chief,,, there would be rioting in the streets. A black person here in the state of Miss can get complete housing and payment of there electric bill,,, buy just not working. I was in line the other day at the grocery store, and a Black woman was in line in front of me,,, she has 10 pounds of jumbo shrimp. she paid for them with food stamps. I walked out when I was finished and she got into a brand new 2002 escalade... Some of the black i worked with in the past, i have actually heard them say.. hey, if I make only 7200.00 a year, and quit that job, and file taxes on that job, i can get all the taxes i paid in back, file for the earned income credit, and get that extra 300.00 plus i can file for my children, and get an extra 400.00 or 500.00 back. in total they were getting about 200.00 back fromthe IRS and never paying in a dime... ( if you wonder how i know,,, ) (( i flat out asked one of them,... i wanted to understand how they were getting back big refunds,,)
The Nissan plant was big news when it came to Miss,,, My Soon to be Father in law, was doing some hiring for them,,,he had a set quota of 7 out of 10 hires had to be " of color minorities" so as to reflect the population of surrounding areas.

I live in a town that is very small and where some battles of the civil war were fought... but even today we are still fighting the past, and I for one am tired of paying for crimes against a race of people that i did not commit.
I think college entrance should not have anything to do with race,,, it should be only test scores. if you want to see discrimination, giving some extra points on there "grading scale" just because of the color of there skin. if that is not Discrimination than i don't know what is!
I hope they over turn the quotas at colleges , and base it on the only thing that matters, the test scores,,, and make the playing field level... may the best Man or Woman win. no matter what there skin color is.
I am not a racist,, i think everyone should have the right to exceed in there life, and enjoy the freedoms this country affords us... but don't hate me for my skin color, as i don't hate you for yours. neither one of us got to choose our skin color....( except michael jackson)
 
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Discussion Starter #5
re

we need the caucasion college fund, that way i can go, i personaly don't care about how blacks were kept slaves an blah blah, wahhh wahhh wahhh, no one in my family tree kept them slaves , so i'm tired of it being an excuse that the white man is keeping the black man down. But of cousre half the time a black guy is in court for something he did its a racial thing, or its perfectly fine to have a riot , i need the extra points too, there not the only ones living in the usa.mistreatment my ass.
 
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Discussion Starter #6
An interesting point of discussion...

Even though Slavery didn't technically completely end in the United States with the issueance of the Emancipation Proclamation, it didn't last for too much longer after the fact and it can be said that there is not a single surviving individual who was kept legally as a slave within the United States.

That tends to kill some of those "You owe me because of slavery" arguments.

Taken a step further however, there were laws that were in place within the lifetimes of individuals that did tend to have reprecussions on the ability of individuals to succeed based on race and economics... And economics were affected by race. The argument that follows is that the youth of today is disadvantaged because their families were not given the oppurtunities that would have led to a successivly better education with each generation... Vis; better schooling leads to a better job which leads to more money which means the family as a whole can afford to move to a better school district and purchase better educational items which leads to a better education for the children which leads to more money etc. Which presents an interesting argument to be certain and one that has some logical points inherent in it... there are certain school districts that tend to do very poorly when tested, the budget seems to play a direct role... And many of those schools are in areas where there is an overwhelming majority of a "Minority" population... although very few if any would be truly uniracial.

So the thought of "Students from poorer areas do not perform as well as students from affluent areas but have the same basic potential to learn, they simply haven't been properly taught." has been stretched and altered to become "Black (Or insert whatever non-caucasian group you want) students do not perform as well as white students but have the same basic potential to learn, they simply haven't been properly taught." Which to me seems to be a more offensive racist statement than most any I can think of, implying that race somehow affects learning ability.

The problem inherent with that is, of course... it discriminates against students (or civil service applicants or many other potential groups) who happen to be caucasian by unfairly benifiting less qualified individuals.

The basic error that is made lies in the fact that economic status can not be directly linked to race or ethnicity. Trends can be shown, but trends don't help the students who are rejected based off something they can't help despite being more qualified in every other way.

And... if they want to bring up trends and the horrors of being a particular race... There should be bonuses granted to the descendants of a large number of caucasian groups. As a hypothetical, an individual back in say... 1840 owns a number of slaves, who he purchased and owns for their entire life... He also owns a number of indentured servants (White people) who he paid a set amount of money for and in turn "owns" for a set period of time (generally seven years) now... six and a half years into that ownership... which do you think he'll send up to reshingle the roof in a lightning storm... the slave, who always retains value... or the indentured servant who he won't have anyway in a few months time?

Ever hear the phrase "No Irish Need Apply"? Where were my extra points when applying to colleges? Is my ethnic discrimination (that I never experienced personally mind you... and my family wasn't even in the country until that situation was mostly cleared up but I can whine about it anyway, right?) somehow less poetic than the plight of the slaves? Maybe if Oprah was Irish I'd get more attention...

I know! I'll sue General Mills over their insulting portrayal of the Irish on every box of lucky charms! That will help settle hundred and forty year old issues that I never actually experienced! I can use it as an excuse... to get extra stuff... without having to earn it! Brilliant!

Oh... oh... I mean... I need this money/TV publicity/memorial/public reparation/free ride through life... in order to soothe the tensions and combat the terrible evils done to my people in the interest of creating diversity and tolerance and brotherhood... Yeah... that's it.
 
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Discussion Starter #7
Well said..

Seamus, I'm Irish too, and I actually agree with you on this subject! LOL! Much of California's SF Bay area is considered "affluent" and yet it's students score among the lowest in their SAT's in the nation. We also have a very wide range of demographics and a diverse cross-section of cultures, and yet a large majority of Asian families live up to 5 generations together in the same house.. working collectively in order to send their children to college. You will never hear any of them 'whining' about how we (caucasians) owe them restitution for bombing Hiroshima or spreading agent orange all over their rice crops in Viet Nam.
 
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We also have a very wide range of demographics and a diverse cross-section of cultures, and yet a large majority of Asian families live up to 5 generations together in the same house.. working collectively in order to send their children to college. You will never hear any of them 'whining' about how we (caucasians) owe them restitution for bombing Hiroshima or spreading agent orange all over their rice crops in Viet Nam.
There did exist in the United States... for a very long time, a strict political and economic power structure that maintained the elite few in relative luxury at the expense of the many.

The problem lies in the fact that this demographic is never really properly represented... It's shown as "White Men" when in fact it was much more complex than that...

It was White Anglo-Saxon Protestants who were ALREADY wealthy that arose initially out of the limited pool of the population of colonists who emmigrated specifically to act in the capacity of rulers...

It was a tiny section of the population, rich and educated individuals granted titles and allowed land generations before even the American Revolution and their descendants who could be considered a part of that ruling class... the wealthy elite who maintained control...

The vast overwhelming majority of the population, including caucasians, were treated just as badly as any slave was, oftentimes worse... Starvation and disease and dangerous working conditions for unfair wages can be just as brutal as a whip... and... the whips were used as well.

The fact remains that there is no living individual who can be said to be responsible for institutionalized and legal slavery within the United States, just as there are no living individuals who can be said to really, truly be feeling the after effects...

And it's about time the rest of the world is no longer made to pay retribution for long past crimes to people who can't even be called victims.

Affirmative action is unconstitutional and discrimantory, individuals need to be judged solely on their individual merit and the skills required to succeed and do the best job possible in whatever they might be endeavoring towards.
 
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Discussion Starter #9
The part I find funny about all of this is that those who were taken as slaves from Africa were sold by their tribes because they were criminals or some other type of malcontent. You get the idea growing up that the evil white people went to Africa and ripped babies out of mother's arms and kidnapped fathers who were bringing food home to their families when in fact, tribal leaders said that they didn't want this one and this one and that they could have them for a price.

Want to talk about reperations? I'm suing my parents for them, because I am a white male, the most despicable thing in this world. Just ask Oprah.
 

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My ancestry, like most peoples', is mixed. My Cherokee ancestors have been here for "a long while," and were kept as slaves for a time by the Iriquois and the Europeans. My Chappell ancestors came here from England at nearly the very beginning of our colonization days (Capt. John Chappell was master of the Speedwell), and we settled here in the early 1600s in South Carolina and owned slaves. My mother's side of the family came through Georgia, Tennessee, and Missouri tot he Ozark Mts. more than 170 years ago, and they too owned slaves. I am typing this on the family farm, where there is the old house from pre-Civil War days, and in back of that house there are still the foundations from where the slave quarters used tobe.

My wife's family is also of mixed heritage. Her mother's people are all from Savannah, GA, and they too kept slaves before the war. He father's people came from Bohemia in the 1880s, and though they did not ever have slaves, they did work with Al Capone's gangs in Chicago during the 1930s!

So, my kids, a true group of hodgepodge Americans, how much should they have to pay for the sins of their faraway forefathers? Do they get credit for being descended from immigrants who arrived after slavery? How about the credit they get from having their ancerteral lands taken from them inthe 1800s? I'm really having trouble finding out how much to pay in this reparations movement . . .it's worse than the IRS ever thought of being.

Any ideas???

I know, I'll just forget the whole thing and let every body stand on their own two feet! How's that sound?

;)
 

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I like the post about the Irish on the roof in the lightening storm. Think about it. The Irish, the Chinese, the Germans and Italians were all immigrants here. None were liked. As the descendant of an Irish immigrant, I am lucky to be here. I explained this to a good friend of mine. He is black. I asked him if he would gamble his $10,000. car in a card game. He said "hell no." I asked him if he changes the oil and maintains this expensive car. He said "of course." I asked him if he drove it everyday. Yes.
I then asked him if slaves were valuable in the day. He looked puzzled. I asked him if slaves were, if poorly at times, fed. Yes, to keep them alive. I asked if an "expensive" slave was given elementary medicine. He agreed.
So slaves were kept alive to suit a purpose. They were bought and paid for. They were useful.
Irishmen like my anscestors were dirt. No one cared if they lived or died. They were beaten when found near the homes of the wealthy. They were arrested, leaving their children hungry, their wives in the streets of the slums. The Irish died.
It was the same for the Germans, Chinese, and Italians. As a matter of fact, they were often killed trying to steal food or money for their families to live. All in a time when no one cared. Not even the whites who were doing it. Mostly English ( of which I am also ). All the while the black slaves were given at least subsistance in return for grueling labor.

We owe each other nothing!
I am Dave's friend. I suspect I always will be. We have an understanding. My skin is not black, his is not white. We are Americans. More than that, we are friends.
 
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Discussion Starter #12
Crime

For those of you white guys, if you commit a crime that lands you in jail for 65 years you can spend those years wishing you where born black so you could have been released on parole in 20 years.
Why is it us whites get much harsher sentancing than the so called "minorities"? I don't get it. Alot of the black criminal cases involve people who are low-class, jobless, poor and often have a history of commiting crime? Wouldn't you suspect there would be better rehabilitation of people who are middle-class with little history of breaking the law? ...Strange days...
 
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