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Discussion Starter #1
From St Louis to Golden, CO, and back, stayed in a little hotel with him during the match. We went to the "match hotel", to see Hack and Bruce Nelson for an evening. Bill warned me that Raul Walters' eyes had flown open, upon leaning over the table and seeing my lw Commander in my IWB x draw rig. So I went and stashed the gun, and Raul called the cops on me. However, Cooper had previously ok'd it with the motel management for us to ccw on the premises, and the cops had to leave all dejected-looking. :)
 

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Did they allow you back in the car after the match? Or were you made to walk home?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I was 10th overall. My first big match, my first experience with real match pressure. I'd won several matches at Columbia, against 30 or so other guys, some of which were top hands, but I didn't know it at the time. :)
 

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I would have loved to see the guys you won against smash their walkers on the floor when you beat them. I'm surprised you didn't shoot one of the seeing eye dogs.

RIKA (love ya too andy) :D
 

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Your being cruel, RIKA. John-boy would never go near a seeing eye dog or a man with an assault walker.
 

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Terry G said:
Your being cruel, RIKA. John-boy would never go near a seeing eye dog or a man with an assault walker.
Thats me. Doncha love me? (I'm not cruel to people who are decent to me).

RIKA :)
 

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I'm positive that you would find it in an old copy of Soldier of Fortune!
 

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garand:

Never thought of that. Wasn't it you who asked in another thread if there was a way to verify andy's accomplishments in IPSC? I am in the process of doing just that. I called Val at the United States Practical Shooting Association today in an effort to obtain information about the 1979 nationals. Andy said he finished 10th and I am wanting to see who's name appears in that position as well as above and below in the order of finish. The problem is, USPSA wasn't formed until 1985 and they don't have records in their archives. I do know that the quality of the competitors back then (in general) pales in comparison to what we have today. The frogs were big, but the pond was small. The pond is much bigger today. Tenth place in 1979 wasn't too shabby, but that skill set today wouldn't be anywhere good enough to run with the big dawgs.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
u can't read. I said I never shot the 1979 nationals. I was 10th at the FIRST IPSC nationals. Do you even know what year that was held in? :)
 

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Discussion Starter #13
The pond is POLLUTED with race gear, that's all. I was running sub 5.5 second El Pres's, with a few D's, lots of C's and A's, all the time in 1978-79. With a standard 1911, no mag well funnel, no comp, no optics, that's still WORLD class performance.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Withsuch a gun, including a 180 degree pivot,surrender start, full charge ball ammo, it's essentially impossible to average much under .30 second for each of the 4 target transitions, or much,if any, under .20 second for the second shot in the 6 doubles. So you are at 2.40 for the shots. That means that your pivot, draw and hit, reload and hit, at 10 yds, with a secure holster, can't be over 3 seconds flat, and better average under 2.5 seconds. So your reaction, pivot draw and hit has to be sub 1.0 second, because averaging under 1.5 second for the reload and hit, at that range, is very difficult indeed. The mag funnels make it easy to average under 1.0 second for a reload,if you have a proper mag pouch for speed reloads. I have never in my life used an extended slide release or an extended mag release. They are bs items, likely to cause you real trouble.
 

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Allegedly that was 1979, 25-26 years ago. So how did you shoot in the Nationals in 1980? 1981? 1982? 1983? 1984? 1985? 1986? 1998? Well tell the rest of the story!
 

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Andy:

OOOPS, my bad screwed up the dates. OK, let's get real for a minute. I am not going to discuss killing people, survival tactics, or any of that stuff with you because that ain't my bag. IPSC is my bag. For readers who are interested, the El Pres is a USPSA classifier stage number CM99-11. I do the stats for a couple of clubs and I just happen to know the high hit factor for the stage. Let's score andy's El Pres based upon the information he gave us.

There are 60 points possible in an El Pres. An A is worth 5 points, a C is 4 points and a D is 2 points. You take the total points divided by the time to arrive at the hit factor. Andy says he had a few D hits, lets define a few as 2 D hits, that sounds fair enough. That leaves 10 shots and andy says he had lots of A's and C's. If we go half A's and half C's andy would have 90 per cent of the remaining available points. I want to be generous so I'll go with more A zone hits than C zone hits. How about 4 C hits and 6 A zone hits?

Let's do the math. Hmmm, 50 points divided by...oh no, we need a time. Andy says he was running sub 5.5 seconds. OK, let's use 5.4 seconds. Back to the math, 50 points divided by 5.4 seconds that's a hit factor of 9.2592 and that's actually pretty good. To see how that stacks up nationally in per cent we divide that by the high hit factor. BTW, the high hit factor was established under the previous power factor using real ammo instead of the weenie loads in use today. Before I forget, the high hit factor is the average of the very best performances.

More math, andy's hit factor divided by the hhf for limited/limited 10 equals, 85.7% and that's just barely into Master class (85% is the floor). Pretty good shooting. FWIW, I have shot 85% with a Les Baer PII, using white box ammo, out of a $15.00 Uncle Mike's holster, along with those little cheap assed clip on Safariland mag pouches. My draw sucks and I run over 1.5 seconds, but my reload is good and my trigger time rocks. I have also tanked the same classifier bad with better gear. Then again, I am not a world class shooter and my scores were cold, on demand, in a match, and they are a matter of record.

Basically, what andy is calling world class shooting ability is in reality 10 per cent below the bottom end of Grandmaster. Let's compare andy to Robbie. Leatham can shoot a 5 second El Pres, on demand, with a single stack, under the old power factor, down 3 or 4 points. That's 105% of the high hit factor or a full 20% better than andy. In fact, Burkett, Avery, Jarrett, Miguez, Strader, and scores of GM shooters are capable of a 5 second El Pres day in and day out down 3 or 4. In fact, at the High Country Shoot Out, my shooting buddy (Sam) shot two El Presidentes back to back (gotta shoot them twice to eliminate blind luck in that match) in a total time of 10.07 seconds with all of the hits COM. He used a single stack and a Blade-Tec holster. That's right, all of those guys shoot faster and straighter than me or andy. That's world class.

FWIW, this classifier is only one of over 30 currently in use and it's actually pretty easy to shoot. This classifier in itself can't be used to predict match performance. Matches now are won by shooting as you leave, shooting on the move, shooting as you get there...getting the point? Movement is vital in addition to trigger time.

Wanna here a real pisser? Rich Bitow has two El Presidentes on file that are better than Andy's world class efforts. Rich shot one in a match in Oregon and the other at get this...the Nationals. Big deal you say. Well, Rich did it with a Model 25-2 Smith revolver reloading with moon clips. Ain't that a kick in the shorts?
 

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In the late '80's, I had the priviledge of shooting regularly with Elwin Fehr (god rest his soul) at that time the British Columbia IPSC Revolver champion. The man was unbelievable when it came to his achievements with a S&W M67. A true inspiration of what can be achieved when you practice with an "obsolete" handgun.
 

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Ankeny said:
Wanna here a real pisser? Rich Bitow has two El Presidentes on file that are better than Andy's world class efforts. Rich shot one in a match in Oregon and the other at get this...the Nationals. Big deal you say. Well, Rich did it with a Model 25-2 Smith revolver reloading with moon clips. Ain't that a kick in the shorts?

:roflmao1:

You couldn't have hurt GoonKid more by pouring boiling oil in his crotch.
 

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In the interest of accuracy, the revolver hit factors are lower than the bottom feeders' hit factors. Bitow's scores are not as good as a really clean 5.5 run, but they sure do beat a loosely defined few D's, and lots of C's and A's. Gotta keep this factual and accurate.

FWIW, I shot the El Pres at club IPSC45 just last weekend in 5.23 down 3 points. That's 3 C's and the rest A zone hits, but I cheated and used the dreaded gamer gear. What andy didn't mention is my high zoot gamer gear doesn't compete against the real guns. My run in gamer division (open) falls way short of Grand Master. Of course, the same score in real gun division (L10) would be over 100%. Even us boneheaded IPSC shooters are smart enough to separate shooters by the gear they use.

As long as I am babbling, anyone who can shoot a 5.5 El Pres on demand is really, really, fast. The problem is, as IPSC evolved, the need to shoot a lot of points has become pretty important at the higher levels of competition. A sub 5.5 with a single stack will get a lot of wow factor from the peanut gallery. Toss in a D hit or two and a handfull of C's and the run is trashed.
 

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Ankeny,

thanks for the posts, and for bringing the discussion back to a civil level. You have presented a lot of interesting factual information.

keep it up.

:devil:
 
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