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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I probably shouldn't post this. It might give NUTTY JOHN too much information.

Rules for Gunfighting


1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammunition is cheap. Life is expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you’re probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. Lateral and diagonal movement is preferred.

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading and running.

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on “pucker factor” than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12. Have a plan. Have plan A and plan B.

13. Have a backup plan, (plan B) because the first one won’t work.

14. Use cover and concealment as much as possible.

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

16. Don’t drop your guard.

17. Always tactically reload and threat scan 360 degrees.

18. Watch the hands. Hands kill. In God we trust – everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.

19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot-up you will be.

21. Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence and de-escalation.

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun the caliber of which does not start with a “4”.
 

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25. Listen carefully to the counsel of experienced men but don't blindly accept without thinking.

Good post Bill.

RIKA
 

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Stillwater said:
24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun the caliber of which does not start with a “4”.
They had to ruin it with this one. Everything else I find perfectly reasonable.
 

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I love the "dont enter a fight with anything lower than a 4" part. My feelings exactly! Unless of course the cartrige in question is a 357 magnum, but thats the only exception. Right on stillwater.
 

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Oh, please. It's an asinine statement.

The 100+ people on the slab in the San Diego cornoner's office who contributed to Wolberg's study (mentioned in another thread) must have died of indigestion rather than the 9mm 147 grain JHPs.
 

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That looks like it came verbatium from the Tactical Response class book.

But still good stuff.
 

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I love the "dont enter a fight with anything lower than a 4" part. My feelings exactly! Unless of course the cartrige in question is a 357 magnum, but thats the only exception.

Ok, soap-box time……

The following numbers are from mfr websites, and while mfr’s may ‘fudge’ on their claims, they have no reason to fudge one caliber over another, which is all we’re comparing.


.357 magnum factory loads:

Winchester 125 = 1370 fps
Federal 125 = 1450 fps
Rem 125 Golden Saber = 1220 fps

Average for 125’s = 1346 fps


.357 Sig factory loads:

Federal 125 = 1350 fps
Remington 125 = 1350 fps
Winchester 125 = 1350 fps

Average for 125’s = 1350 fps


Even 9mm factory loads: (The 9mm numbers aren’t from mfr sites, they’re from a law-enforcement testing site, and are actual, chronographed numbers)

Winchester 115 +P+ = 1320 (from S&W 5906)
CorBon 115 +P = 1317 (from a P226)
Winchester 127 +P+ = 1300 (Browning HP and Glock 26 both; wish they'd tested it in the longer G19, as that's my carry combo...)

Average for two 115’s & one 127 = 1312 fps


Even if we avoid all +P+ and even +P loads in 9mm, the CCI 115 Gold Dot chrono'ed 1259 fps from a P226, which is 93% of the .357 magnum 125-grain average; in a non-plus-P load. In a Glock barrel, it would be higher.



Factoring in these cartridges' handguns themselves (weight, capacity, etc), the .357 Sig is the clear winner, and even the 9mm is IMO preferable to the .357 magnum revolver; assuming we use high-end 9mm ammo. (Which we should do in most any caliber if we can.)

Just an opinion…
 

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When the statement was made about the "don't go in there lessen you got sum'm beginnin with a 4!" it might have been halfway decent advice. At the time, the .40 had been introduced using the latest and greatest in bullet technology. I don't think there WAS a .357 SIG, but I could well be wrong. Bullet tech has come an long, long way in the last 15 years, yielding rounds that perform about equal across the board between the ranges of 9mm through .45. The 9x18s, .38s and .380s suffer due to a combination of frontal area and velocity. They can be made to penetrate adequately, or to expand well, but its very hard to get them to do both the way the major defense calibers can, which is what makes them major defense calibers to begin with.

Pick a good gun (for you) in a major defense caliber, a good bullet (for what you're thinking you might have to shoot), and then it's all practice. Good, realistic practice.
 

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Carry what YOU can shoot.
Don't look down on people with mouseguns, they can still kill you.
Damn well better not look down on people who carry big bores, they can kill you just as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun the caliber of which does not start with a 4

I knew the above statement (NO. 24) Would stir up a lot of good commentary, on firearms and calibers.

I have a bunch of pistols ranging in caliber from 22 LR, to 45 ACP.

While owning many pistols of almost every caliber known, except 356 TSW, I do own 13 in 45 ACP. Twelve heavily modified Colts, by Jim Hoag, and one Springfield TRP Operator.

SA TRP Operator has a light rail on it. For which I have both, a Surefire Tactical light, and a Surefire laser.

I do love the 45ACP. My hundred year old grandfather, gave me my first new 1911 in 1950.
 

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Stillwater said:
I do love the 45ACP. My hundred year old grandfather, gave me my first new 1911 in 1950.
That's a precious legacy.

There's nothing not to love about the .45 ACP, either. It's still a great cartridge, and the 1911 is still a fine weapon platform.
 

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Magnum88C said:
Carry what YOU can shoot.
Don't look down on people with mouseguns, they can still kill you.
Damn well better not look down on people who carry big bores, they can kill you just as well.

Honestly, I should have put that in my ramblings above. Shot placement is the biggest factor in "stopping power". You should carry a pistol you can handle well, regardless of the caliber.
 

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Stillwell, remember I was Canadian Army. Because of the abuse that has been carried out by the political party in control against the military, we had Plan, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H,.................. It was the only way we could accomplish anything!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Garand said:
Stillwell, remember I was Canadian Army. Because of the abuse that has been carried out by the political party in control against the military, we had Plan, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H,.................. It was the only way we could accomplish anything!
Isn't that always the situation? When the country is in danger, the most adored people around are the soldiers.

When soldiers set things aright, then they are unwanted and vilified.

It's disgusting ...
 

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Rules of a Gunfight
Avoid them like the plague
Be aware of what is going on around you by staying in condition yellow.
Have a plan or two. (If not, a "Last Will & Testament will do.)
Corollary: No plan survives contact with the enemy.
Bring at least one gun (don't bring a knife).
Bring the biggest gun you can handle.
Bring friends (as friendly witnesses or fire support).*
Let close air support or artillery soften-up the target for you. ;-)
Make use of available cover.
Remember the difference between concealment and cover.
Don't get shot (Use cover to your advantage).
Place your shots well.
Pay attention to where your shots fall.
"Speed's fine, but accuracy is final."
Don't miss. (You can't miss fast enough to win.)
Rules of drawing
If you're the bad guy, draw & shoot first.
If you're the good guy, draw second and shoot first.
Never turn your back on an armed bad guy, even if he's down.
Rules of wounds
A "sucking chest wound" is nature's way of telling you to slow down.
If you're bleeding to death, say something witty.
If you're actually dying, say something deep.
Never assume your opponent is out of ammo.
Bring lots of ammo.
In combat, you will be scared. You will have a tendency to shoot high. Be aware of this and aim low.
Rules of quitting
Don't quit just because you're hit; GET EVEN!
Never quit, period.
There is no prize for second place.
There's no such thing as "unfair advantage."
It is better to give than receive (Just like Christmas).
If your opponents didn't have the courtesy to "Count Off!" before beginning, assume that there's one more somewhere.
Rules of Urban Combat
When the cops pull up, think fast and move slow.
Say nothing afterwards but the Seven Magic Words: "I'd like to speak with my attorney."
Distribute press releases indicating your target belongs to a cult.*
Drop the one with the shotgun first.
Afterward, alter evidence to favor your position and plan for perjury.*
Use cutesy green-and-purple colored weapons and ammo so the press won't show any video of your non-evil-looking equipment. Fuzzy rifle-wrap works best.
Insist on at least $50K from tabloid TV producers
 

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I would add "dont be satisfied with a 1 shot kill. Squeeze the trigger a few more times." to any list of rules.
 

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If it looks like it is pushing an assualt wheelbarrow kill it without compunction or mercy. In fact gut shoot it and then get a beer and a chair cause the show outght to be good from there.
 

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Ok Ok ill admit im harsh on the nine, and i forgot the 357 sig. My bad. But yes, if you are most comfortable with a nine, or even a 5.7, go for it. I guess im too used to fourty and dont want to risk my life over not enough oomph.

But can you give a linke to that 1300 fps 9mm? All the stuff my buddies use clocks no more than 1k fps on hot factory loads. 800-900 is normal fo what I see. Mabye theres something I dont know about.... (highly possible)
 
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