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Discussion Starter #1
without a glass, match ammo, etc, and few bother with such. Since few claim that the AK aint got enough reach, then obviously the 10" 223 has plenty of it.

at the ranges where you need instant stops, (ie, less than 100 yds) the 10" 223, with a good sp, has over 800 ft lbs. when you shoot big canines with it and with 250 gr swc's at 1200 fps in a 4" .44 mag, you'll see that the 223 shorty has a LOT more effectiveness. Since nobody claims that the 4" .44, (loaded with swc's) is inadequate as a stopper, neither is the shorty 223.

when your gun "wears" a silencer, you'll miss less and take less accurate return fire. So you need less ammo. you dont have to practice with sp's. you can either know the sight settings to change back and forth, or just leave the gun zeroed with fighting ammo and "hold off" for the practice ammo. Or buy another upper, with 16" barrel, for the "legit" stuff and practice with that one, saving the fouling and wear on the 10" version.
 

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Quality, 60+ gr 223 sp's pierce level IIIA armor like it's not even present. it will pierce one side of car at 45 degree angle and both sides at a 90 degree angle. There's not enough benefit in shooting at what you can't see (ie thru "cover". to make up for not having a silencer, not having concealability. Many a fine place to hunt can't be accessed if your gun shows (or makes noise)
 

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Quality, 60+ gr 223 sp's pierce level IIIA armor like it's not even present. it will pierce one side of car at 45 degree angle and both sides at a 90 degree angle. There's not enough benefit in shooting at what you can't see (ie thru "cover". to make up for not having a silencer, not having concealability. Many a fine place to hunt can't be accessed if your gun shows (or makes noise)
I am presuming you mean without the plate as well? If so, yea. It's not designed to handle that, it's supposed to be augmented to meet the threat.

It won't penetrate many parts of a car other than the glass at many angles. SPs have superior performance on glass compared to other solutions, however. Range comes into play significantly, especially with SPs and penetration of metalic mediums. Will it go through aluminum and fabric, ya. Will it go through a steel assembly intact with any meaningful retention at various ranges, quite possibly not.
 

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I dont agree with trying to shoot thru barriers, with anything short of a ma deuce. Just correcting some very stupid assumptions by dummies like garand. very few people, post shtf, are going to be lugging around a trauma plate, for more than a few days. It just sucks too much to bother with. you wont be getting choppered in and out of any place.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
but so MANY "think" the iron sighted .30 AK has "adequate range', but many others will claim that the shorty 223 does not. I know for a fact that both are fos. :) the .30 ak IS too short ranged, and the shorty 223, especially with a can, has plenty of reach, if it's scoped.
 

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What is "short range"? Are we talking 300 yards? The AK can do that.
 

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I dont agree with trying to shoot thru barriers, with anything short of a ma deuce. Just correcting some very stupid assumptions by dummies like garand. very few people, post shtf, are going to be lugging around a trauma plate, for more than a few days. It just sucks too much to bother with. you wont be getting choppered in and out of any place.
You make some very dangerous assumptions. You HOPE people ditch their plate carriers because You don‘t own any, are too weak to wear one, or realize people wearing them destroy your fantasy of killing everyone you see...
 

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