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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was at the range yesterday, qualifying people from my agency. It is amazing how poorly some of them shoot. One guy failed to qualify even after coming to our remedial shoot a few weeks ago. He was not that far from a qualifying score, so I figured I could get him to at least squeeze by on the next qualification attempt - they get three chances. I spoke to him about what to do and he said yeah he remembered from the remedial class we had given. He shot fine at the three, then went to the seven where he had his biggest difficulty because of one handed unsupported shooting. I was about to start talking him through each single shot, when I noticed that something must have clicked. After shooting a total of 24 rounds at the 3 and 7 yard lines, he had only dropped 3 points as opposed to about 20 the first time around. Then back to the 25 yard line and he only dropped 6 more out of 30 possible points from there. In all a 150 is a perfect score and he got a 141. That is up from a 116 the first time around, 120 qualifies. This was a pretty big improvement.

As another Range Officer said when I told him what just happened:
"Sometimes all we have to do is sharpen the pencil!"
I guess so! It is a good feeling knowing that he went back out on the street that much improved but I guess only time will tell to see if he can figure out how to keep the pencil sharp all by himself.


Best regards,
Glenn B:)
 

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GBart, What gets me is the number or percentage of people involved in Security/Enforcement positions as a profession that don't even CARE to "get it", much less keep "it" sharp!?!:confused:
anodes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Anodes,

Hi buddy. I know what you mean, we have a few fed agents who wonder why they have to carry a gun at all.
 
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what is the size of the "10 ring",

what are the times, number of shots, at each stage, and does the shooter have to start holstered? Secured in the holster, ccw, or what? Scores are meaningless without such info, you know. Most such courses are so slow that a fit man can run up to the target, stab it as many times as the shooters fire, and run back to the firing line, and still beat the time limit. So what advantage is the gun,if you are THAT slow with it, hmm?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
This course by the way is a combat qualification course. It is timed, the times vary at each stage. The guns start off in the holster, with the retention method of the holster closed, hands off the weapon (when I catch em with hand on I have them remove the hand from the weapon until the command to fire.

Since you seem to be such a source of knowledge, I figure that you already know this, but I will mention it for the benefit of others: Within a radius of about 30 feet (used to be 21 feet - but I guess studies have shown that to be wrong), any fit person could run up to you, in a fairly open area, and stab or slash you multiple times with an edged weapon before you could bring a holstered handgun into action against your assailant no matter how fast the shooter (there may be rare exceptions but these would be the extreme). The same holds true for a slung rifle. If either pistol or rifle is in the hand held at the ready, the reaction time of the shooter is shortened and would probably allow the shooter to get off some shots if the assailant came from as far as 30 feet; however, it is likely that the assailant would still be able to deliver effective slashes or stabs. Use of a firearm at that close range, when the firearm was holstered or slung, is certainly not the best defensive measure you can take against an assailant with an edged weapon.

As far as a course being slow goes, even if it went at a snails pace, if the accuracy of a shooter improves then it has improved. It means that the shooter can now fire more accurately. Fast can be too fast, cause you to shoot like someone who is spraying and praying and that can have you or an innocent party wind up dead while your assailant gets away. Of course I am not saying that there needs to be some speed in a gunfight or gun against knife fight, but speed is not everything - especially if the shooter is inaccurate. I prefer to start teaching people how to shoot accurately. Regardless of that preference, the course was timed as already noted. We also practice speed drills and other combat shooting on a regular basis. Yet as I have pointed out already, sometimes speed will not help at all such as in the case of an assailant with an edged weapon within a 30 foot radius of you, and solely attempting use of a firearm from a holster in that situation would likely get you wounded or killed. So your point about the assailant with an edged weapon and about a course being slow is rather lost on me. So I'll ask you your own question:

So what advantage is the gun, if you are THAT slow with it, hmm?
My answer would be: If you know how and when to use it, and you know how to utilize cover, concealment, movement and other defensive tactics, then it is quite useful as a defensive weapon - of course you should also be trained in alternative defensive responses to such things as knife attack at close range. As for a pistol being an effective defensive weapon, thousands upon thousand of people who have been shot by people defending themselves with pistols could attest to that.
Best regards,
Glenn B
 

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There is a very interesting video called Surviving Edged Weapons that you all should watch. Definitely an eye opener about dealing with a threat at "close" distances. It definitely puts any one on the defensive part of the equation at a distinct disadvantage. By the time you realize that you are threatened, it is probably too late to do anything about stopping it. But you can take the SOB down with you, at least.
 
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90+% of the time, no hitting is necessary.

the attack stops at just the sight of a gun in the hand of the defender, or at shots that dont actually hit him. Even more stop at what are really POOR hits, too. Even when out of it on dope, facing life in prison for multiple armed robberies, 3 strikes, etc, 80+% of the slimeballs that Cirillo's NYPD stakeout team engaged, did not make the cops shoot them. You can neither shoot nor intimidate anyone with a gun that you dont yet have out and ready to fire, so that element of speed is way ahead of any accuracy requirement, period. Being too slow, is every bit as bad as missing, especially with the very ineffective ammo used by almost everyone in their handguns. You can't hit with a rd that you have not yet fired, and being shot at, and being hit (but poorly) has stopped many an attacker. Probably far more than were stopped by nice chest hits, with typical ammo, in fact. 38 lhp plus P loads, from a 4" barrel, failed 4 x 4 tries to penetrate the skulls of Platt and Matix, at ranges of 3-6 feet. So anyone who "thinks" that such loads amount to a hill of beans is kidding himself.
 
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I have a video clip on the PC of an officer getting shot by a looney at which hwas pointing his gun. If I can upload it to this site I will, I have even had problems emailing it to my home from work sio maybe it will not work. The bottom line is that the officer's gun out and in plain sight to the whacko with whom he was dealing had no effect of deterrance. In fact the bad guy put together an assault rifle, and then killed the officer. (I am not going to go into the wrong things done by the officer, they are not applicable to this discussion, I am just pointing out that the sight of a gun does not deter as often as you think). By the way, some of that stuff you bring up about what Cirillo says is dinosaur stuff. If you don't think peoples attitudes have changed since then and that many more people fit the psycho mold today than then - well, go ahead stand your ground and try to use your gun as a deterrent when someone charges you from within 30 feet with a raised sword or other edged weapon. You will likely find out who is correct in this disciussion. Of course you may get lucky and just the act of going for a gun may stop the guy, but if it does not, then I hope he was just bluffing. I would really rather that you create distance between you and your attacker as quickly as possible while also drawing your weapon, and would rather that you get on the other side of some type of cover. Then maybe you would have an opportunity to deter by brandishing your firearm, or maybe even possibly to stop by shooting it.

As a matter of fact, there is an easy way to satisfy an curiosity
you may have. Ask a friend who is reasonably fit, to hold a red knife (rubber training knife) and attack you from within 21 feet. Stand your ground, and draw a red gun (rubber training nonfiring gun) and see if you even clear leather before he slashes you with the knife. Then try it at 25 feet, 30 feet, 15 feet. Let me know at which distance you were able to draw your firearm from the holster, bring it on target, and say bang bang as you squeeze the rubber trigger twice. Then try it with your weapon out and at the ready. Start at the furthest distance, then work your way down, you may be surprised to find out how far away the bad guy can be and still get you. Now consider that no natter what rounds you have in your pea shooter, the attacker may take multiple hits and still get you - if you were a good enough shot to hit him in the first place while the pucker factor has engaged. I have engaged in this experiment, because I too thought all of this BS when I first heard it. It is not. If you are cught in the open, in my opinion, the absolute best thing you can do in an edged weapon situation is to get more than 30 feet between you and your assailant, while at the same time getting something between you and him. Then you can bring your weapon to bear on him. This would be called a tactical retreat, and reengagement. It works wonders in such situations.

Watch the film Rich Z talked about, it is pretty interesting. I am not certain but I think that one (it may be another I have seen a few) also includes stats on how many officers get it with edged weapons because they tried to fight off a knife wielding attacker with their gun instead of first trying to create distance. It may help save your life.

Best regards,
Glenn B
 

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The reason I got that film, and the reason I keep it, is because if I ever should happen to have to shoot someone whom is threatening me with a blade, I want my attorney to have the jury at my trial view it before they pass judgement on my actions.

So of course, the question is: At what distance to you consider a person with a blade in their hand, and threatening you with harm, as a credible threat that dictates lethal force to neutralize?
 
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Mr, if you "think" I am going to WAIT

to fire when someone is ALREADY charging me from 30 ft, with something as lethal as a sword, you are quite wrong. However, we both know that such a weapon probably isn't used 5x a year in the entire US. The typical screwball, with a typical knife, is a lot less of a theat, and everyone on the jury will know that.

I got news for you, the guys Cirillo faced were a LOT more serious than the average clown you will face. Those guys were robbing the SAME liquor store, twice a day, which is why Jim was staked out there in the first place. Nearly all of them were facing life sentences in SingSing, for being "repeat offenders", and nearly all of them were doped up to the gills, which is why they were still willing to risk armed robberies in Harlem, long after the word was on the street that a Stakeout Unit was heavily present. They shot about 50 guys, out of 250 armed robbery attempts that they interceded-into.

Given my skills, and the guns and loads I use, nobody is going to charge me from 30 ft (if I've got a gun pointed at him) and do jack crap, let me assure you. Such a charge, from a standing start, takes 3 seconds, and in that time, my belt gun and I can easily react and put 9 shots into him in that time, and still have him be out of reach with his sword, even if I DIDN'T back up any. In 3 seconds, I can easily back up 20 ft, which would of course "buy" me another entire second. If I chose to use a double stack mag, he'd then get yet another 4 or so rds in him, at 800 ft lbs each, and 3 wound tracks each. :)
 

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"Charging" was not the operative word in my scenario.

If someone is standing still, say 30 feet from you, with a knife in hand, and stating he is going to cut you, are you justified to draw a gun a fire on him? Is he a credible enough threat to be able to do that and convince a jury of it?

Or do you have to actually await his "charge", before drawing and firing?

In some states, even drawing a gun unneccessarily (depending who is making this distinction) can get you charged with brandishing a weapon.
 
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draw your gun, yes. Fire before he moves

no. at 30 ft, unless he had a sword, or I had only a feeble load, i'd fire the first rd past his ear, but then I am capable of getting 12 hits on the chest in the 3 seconds it would take anyone to charge 30 ft, from a standing start. I suggest that you start backing up, putting obstacles between you, etc. Just because you SEE one guy with a knife, does not mean he can't pull a gun, or that he doesn't have a buddy, ya know.
 

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jamullins said:
unregistered is a god among mortals, all pay homage and lick his mighty brass cohones
Don't encourage him...you will only regret it later.

Kinda like feeding a stray cat...
 
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hey, clowns, u know how FAST a 12

second 100 yd dash is, hmm. 25 fps, at FULL speed. Most guys can't do it in 15 seconds, once they are out of high school. 20 fps, full speed. Maybe YOU cant react, make a ccw belt draw, and get a NICE chest hit, at arm's length in less than 1 second, but I sure can, and given another .20 second, I can most certainly do so at 10 ft, too. You are NOT going to cover 30 ft in 2 seconds, ya know, not from a standing start.

See, dummies, if you tried what I said, wax ammo and an electronic shooting timer, you'd know some of these things, instead of just running your mouth about that which you are ignorant. I met Dennis Tueller, of the 'Tueller drill", at the 1978 IPSC Nat'ls.

Given my gun out and "on" a man, he aint going to TOUCH me, if he starts standing, at 6 ft, much less 30 ft. He'll need .5 second in order to reach me from that distance, and in that time, I can react, and shoot him at LEAST twice. Of course, if you are not goin g to just immediately burn hiim down at such a range, what you should be doing is backing up, putting obstacles between him and you. All that, however, might as well be Greek to a bunch of inept old plinkers.j :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Anyone who believes he can shoot to actually stop an assailant who comes at you from 6 feet away who is brandishing a knife, without the shooter being seriously wounded by the knife wielding assailant, has been watching either too much romper room or to many action hero bs movies and, in my estimation, is a pure looser in that confrontation. The best defense at that range to a knife wielding attacker is to use a blocking technique hopefully with a nice hard object at hand. Of course if you were stupid enough to let him get that close with a knife in his hand, that is your fault.

Now as for incessant referring to others on this board as dummies, I must speak out even though I may quite possibly do so at the expense of getting myself in trouble or banned from this site. I find I have a strong need to express my opinion concerning the person(s) who keeps doing such, specifically the person(s) whose post appears immediately before this one in which that person refers to we other posters as dummies. In my opinion, that person is an asshole!

Play with your wax and your timers all you want, then have someone attack you with a red knife from your chosen distance. I guarantee they make contact each time, and likely before you gun goes off even once. I also bet that, in a real life scenario, it would be, to anyone but you, a serious to mortal peril. My guess though (my opinion in other words), is that in real life, you would be running away so fast that as you panic pee yourself, your piss would be left behind so quickly so as not to have time to even wet your own leg.

Sincerely,
Glenn Bartley
 
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u want to BET say, $500 against $5000

that I can't hold a bb gun, you TRY marking me with your chalk knife, before I pop you MULTIPLE times. :) Hell, almost nobody can touch me if I AINT got a gun. I'd break your leg before you had a CLUE what was happening. Just because YOU are inept, slow, etc doesn't mean EVERYONE suffers from your handicaps. your stupidity comes from NOT having a timer, and KNOWING how long such things take. have somebody drop a coin, from shoulder height, dummy. It hits the floor in .75 second. that's say, .25 second reaction time, and .50 second for you to move. SEE how far you can move, after seeing the coin fall, dummy. It WONT be more than 6 ft. Now, dummy, if you THINK that a man who's taught MooDukKwan for 30 years, and who can still standing broadjump 7 ft, is just going to be stupidly STANDING there, LETTING you charge up with your knife, you REALLY are an ignoramus.

ONE of the standards for the FIRST degree blackbelt, dummy, was to stand in front of 2 guys, who were holding somebody's cloth belt stretched out between them, at the height of the testee's xyphoid process. I had to just hop over that belt. :) I was passing that test after just 7 months of training, but it was about 10 hours a week of intense training.
 

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Unregistered said:
second 100 yd dash is, hmm. 25 fps, at FULL speed. Most guys can't do it in 15 seconds, once they are out of high school. 20 fps, full speed. Maybe YOU cant react, make a ccw belt draw, and get a NICE chest hit, at arm's length in less than 1 second, but I sure can, and given another .20 second, I can most certainly do so at 10 ft, too. You are NOT going to cover 30 ft in 2 seconds, ya know, not from a standing start.

See, <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>, if you tried what I said, wax ammo and an electronic shooting timer, you'd know some of these things, instead of just running your mouth about that which you are ignorant. I met Dennis Tueller, of the 'Tueller drill", at the 1978 IPSC Nat'ls.

Given my gun out and "on" a man, he aint going to TOUCH me, if he starts standing, at 6 ft, much less 30 ft. He'll need .5 second in order to reach me from that distance, and in that time, I can react, and shoot him at LEAST twice. Of course, if you are not goin g to just immediately burn hiim down at such a range, what you should be doing is backing up, putting obstacles between him and you. All that, however, might as well be Greek to a bunch of inept old plinkers.j :)
This is John Melvin Davis, an exconvict, posting as unregistered in this post.

Bill
 

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i could tell

stillwater, having kicked the total <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font> out of these convicts on numorous occasions.

he 'fills the funnel' perfectly, the only reason he's on the net, talking trash , is out of self preservation, but by reading his posts you know this person has some really deep problems[he's just another lump of <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font> that needs to be flushed, again,]

thanks. :madeuce:
 

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I've got $5000 to your $500 that says you can't

TOUCH me with a rolled up mag, from 6 ft away, before I pop you with an air soft pellet. :) Same bet that I can break your leg before you can touch me, bare handed. What you punks can't FATHOM is, I MEAN it. NONE of you DARES take me up on ANY bet I've made on the net. Not only would you lose your $500, you'd never be able to post on the Net gun forums again, cause I"d LAUGH you off of every one of them. :)

Just because YOU would just STAND there with a gun doesn't mean EVERYONE is as lame as you are, ya know.
 
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