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Some comments by the Isreali IDF forces on the short barreled AR-15 rifle.

Excerpt:

Despite the good intentions behind its creation, the IDF home made sawn off CAR15 had one big problem. Like most infantry oriented aspects in the very unorganized IDF, the barrels' sawing project was done without a proper higher control and unified procedure. In the tests conducted by Colt before they began manufacturing of the Colt Commando, they found out that a 11.5 inch barrel length was the minimal M16 barrel length that still assured proper and reliable functioning of the weapon. SHORTER BARREL LENGTHS WOULD NOT ALLOW THE BUILD-UP OF SUFFICIENT GAS PRESSURE, IN THE BARREL, RESULTING IN ACUTE JAMMING PROBLEMS.

Excerpt:

When keeping in mind, that the sawn off CAR15 was originally intended for short range urban CQB fighting alone, then one realize that the compactor was mainly designed to help those operators who also wanted to use the weapon for open field combat, despite its inherent lack of accuracy and range, a fatal mistake to begin with. Unfortunately this attitude of "do first think later" is too common in the IDF (AND WITH NUTTY JOHN) and when it comes down to choices of firearms its especially severe and often rely on status and other non relevant considerations, rather then on pure tactical-operational ones.

The above excerpts should show that NUTTY JOHN is a whacked out LIAR when he talks about his 10" AR-15. Of course we all know that, except for NUTTY JOHN'S lone supporter!


http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/car15/car15sawn.htm
 

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Very interesting post, kind of proves everything gunkid holds as true, in reality is false!!
 

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Like everything else, the shorty CAR has a purpose - as in room clearing. Otherwise for any real fighting its a failure.

RIKA
 

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Can't speak for the 10 or 11" versions, but I dropped (an admittedly small) deer at 80-90 yards last week with a 14.5" version. Shot through the spine between the shoulders, it dropped like a white house intern. It was actually the only deer I've ever taken that didn't run; just literally fell sideways & rolled over. But with a spinal cord hit like that, most any load/gun may have worked equally well, who's to say...?

I did once own an 11.5" version, an olympic. Never clocked any loads out of it, so I can't comment on velocity/power. But from a reliability standpoint, it just flat sucked. Three gunsmiths AND the olympic factory couldn't make it work once it warmed up. First four or five shots it was fine, but after that it hung up almost always. Ended up trading it to one of the gunsmiths that had worked on it.

The class 3 guy I deal with here says he can make a Colt-brand shorty barrel work reliably, but not any others. He can't explain why, but it's one of those things that just "is", in his words.
 

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John in AR, how do you find you find your 14.5" for reliability in your geographical enviornment? I have a 14.5" Armalite M15A2(LE), that i use for gun games. As long as I don't feed it underpowered British 5.56mm that was designed for the SA-80, generally in moderate temperatures at the range, its reliable. Using the British 5.56mm by "RG" , I had 175 IA's & stoppages in 200 rds. Plus the gas tube was so fouled I actually had a single shot rifle. It took cleaning with foot long pipe cleaners, Hoppes #9 and 5 rds of Canadian Ball to clear the tube.
 

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The AR was designed for 20 inch barrel. As you start going down in length you lose power, reliablity, and to an extent, accuracy. To me the 16 inch tube is the minimum, just like in the 7.62 I think 18 inches is that (but the M1A action does not blow gas back in the action, and thus is a bit more tolerant in how much power is need to cycle.)

Unless you are willing to make your AR just a 200 yard weapon usefull for only unarmored targets out in the open, I suggest keeping a 16 or greater length barrel. A 10" CAR is not even a 100 yard weapon. It's just alot of loud noise and barely .22 hornet power. But Gunkid is only dreaming so who cares really.
 

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My AR is nothing more than a game gun for use under 100 meters.
 

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Garand said:
John in AR, how do you find you find your 14.5" for reliability in your geographical enviornment? I have a 14.5" Armalite M15A2(LE), that i use for gun games. As long as I don't feed it underpowered British 5.56mm that was designed for the SA-80, generally in moderate temperatures at the range, its reliable. Using the British 5.56mm by "RG" , I had 175 IA's & stoppages in 200 rds. Plus the gas tube was so fouled I actually had a single shot rifle. It took cleaning with foot long pipe cleaners, Hoppes #9 and 5 rds of Canadian Ball to clear the tube.

Mine's a Bushmaster, and has been completely reliable with anything I've put in it. It's been fed quite a few loads, from the hotter Q3131A and XM193 full "5.56" spec, down to the generic "USA" .223, Federal ballistic tips, Remington 55-grain softpoints, Black Hills 60-gr sp's; quite a few variations. No problems with any load. Frankly, if it were unreliable or finicky, I'd never consider it for defense; that's my absolute primary consideration in a defensive weapon, and it's what got me to abandon the even-shorter Olympic I had. I've had this bushy for 5-6 years now, and I don't recall ever having a stoppage with it, even when new (except with the Ciener unit). But like you say, that's in "my geographical environment"; colder Canada might be a different story. And to be honest, I keep it pretty clean, which helps. The pipe-cleaner-in-the-gas-tube thing is part of my normal cleaning routine

My new one is one I 'pieced together'; an Armalite (Eagle) lower with a Model One sales 16" upper. I haven't shot it enough to trust it yet, so it mostly lives in the safe still, except when I pull it out to run some rounds through it.



I would have thought all nato ammo would be loaded to similar specs. The British don't use full-power 5.56 ammo?

I'd have expected that of the French, perhaps. Full-power .223's may well be just too much for those "cheese-eating surrender monkeys". :nyah:
 

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The exterior specs of Brit 5.56mm is to NATO standards but the load is lighter due to the fact of light weight bolt in the SA-80. I've run it through 3 different rifles, an Armalite, an exceptionally reliable Oly and a Diemaco and had the same results.
 
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