than the pistol, to 20-30 ft, no faster than the auto rifle at such ranges, no ap capability, very limited mag capacity, Buckshot has very limited ability against cars (about like a .22 rifle has) Slugs just make the shotgun a VERY poor rifle, there is no feasibility in suppressing a shotgun's blast or flash. Most have no rustproofing, luminous sights are a $200-$300 custom proposition, etc. When you look at the TIMES posted for hits, at various ranges, the pistol and the rifle are far superior to the shotgun, except for a VERY narrow range, of 7/20-25-40m, (depending upon the load and the choke) Even at the shotgun's "ideal" range, the typical bozo with a pump 12, and no ear protection, can't hit man targets (either partial toros OR cover using heads) as fast as can the skilled man with a canned 223 auto rifle.
shotguns a joke for combat, really. slower
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Ther are very few miscreants who do not recognize, when they hear it, the distinctive sound of a 12 ga pump as a round is chambered, and therefore realize the potential for imminent serious personal injury if they proceed with their original intent. It is my weapon of choice for home defense, or facing numerous proximous opponents. I'm not alone in that choice and the reasons for said chioce are not born of ignorance or lack of precident.
Satcong
Satcong
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90 Posts
Hey give hin time .He's workin on it!
It is undoubtedly my choice as well for close quarters work, especially my Mossbergs and Benellis. The reason you just stated is one of the major reasons for this. Having a distinct psychological advantage over any would-be attackers is perhaps the most important aspect of all.SatCong said:
Other reasons are, contrary to what was originally stated -- speed, control and maneuverability. All this coupled with the ability to shoot an exceptionally wide range of ammo: buck, slug, flachette, incendiary, breech, explosive, etc.
Did I mention extraordinary stopping power? -- The ability to produce numerous critical wound channels in a human being.
Reloading is a breeze, quite inexpensive, and your options are nearly limitless for "special" loads.
-Temujin
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1,118 Posts
Yes indeed a shotgun with which to go through a door, it is a weapon of choice if I have a choice. I had a chioice for years: just my hangun, or my handgun and: a rifle in .223, an HK MP5, or a Remingtonm 870. I often chose the MP5 but also often chose the Remington 870. I would sya they ranked about equally for an entry gun, unless it was entry into a fortified location where I would usually take the shotgun. Damed good tactical shootin tool that Remington 870...
Place a half a dozen pepper poppers downrange, from 7-15 yards, with various spacing. Start at the low ready. The current breed of combat shotgunners, Cooley, Hill, Butler, etc., will have those poppers on the ground and be half way through a Snickers bar before... well you know the rest.
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6,016 Posts
Imperfect, perhaps, but imperfection does not automatically relegate a device to "joke" status. I switched from my mossberg 12 gauge to my CAR-15 for personal protection and duty use several years ago, and prefer it greatly; but if I heard an opponent racking a pump shotgun in a dark room, it's highly unlikely I'd think, "Thank god he's got a shotgun."
Regarding speed, that's a matter of training, especially if using an auto. As far back as 1991 or 92, I remember John Dixon (anyone familiar with 1980's IPSC knows him; he's the only "known" person I can name-drop) switching from his Remington 1100 to a Benelli auto, simply because the remington didn't cycle as fast as he was pulling the trigger. These were loads stout enough to cycle the 1100's unomdified gas operating system, so they weren't terribly 'wimped-out', yet he'd be pulling the trigger for his second shot before the gun went completely back into battery. (And yes, he was hitting with his shots, not just spraying. He was very good.)
When you're triggering shots faster than a semi-auto can cycle, that's fast shooting; doesn't matter who you are.
Regarding speed, that's a matter of training, especially if using an auto. As far back as 1991 or 92, I remember John Dixon (anyone familiar with 1980's IPSC knows him; he's the only "known" person I can name-drop) switching from his Remington 1100 to a Benelli auto, simply because the remington didn't cycle as fast as he was pulling the trigger. These were loads stout enough to cycle the 1100's unomdified gas operating system, so they weren't terribly 'wimped-out', yet he'd be pulling the trigger for his second shot before the gun went completely back into battery. (And yes, he was hitting with his shots, not just spraying. He was very good.)
When you're triggering shots faster than a semi-auto can cycle, that's fast shooting; doesn't matter who you are.
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9,822 Posts
Shotguns like any other firearm when used within their limitations are an excellent firearm. When I was in the Middle East, a 12 ga pump was the weapon of choice for feral dog packs. Try a night patrol on Vancouver Island of the coast of British Columbia under double canopy foliage. It is so black you can hardly see your hand in front of your face.
It takes both time and effort to master it, if your incapable of mastering it, choose a different firearm. Any man who disregards a man armed with a shotgun, is a fool. Personal tactics can either enhance a firearms ability, or cause that ability to fail.
It takes both time and effort to master it, if your incapable of mastering it, choose a different firearm. Any man who disregards a man armed with a shotgun, is a fool. Personal tactics can either enhance a firearms ability, or cause that ability to fail.
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160 Posts
The crowds in Iraq have a great respect for the yawning mouth of a 12 gauge Benelli.
We use them for crowd control and forced entry, hinges and doors do not survive slugs and the breacher still has a capable weapon in his hands.
14" Barrel
5+1 capacity
Pistol grip sotck with reduced length of pull
We use them for crowd control and forced entry, hinges and doors do not survive slugs and the breacher still has a capable weapon in his hands.
14" Barrel
5+1 capacity
Pistol grip sotck with reduced length of pull
The psychological impact of the appearance or sound of a pump action is not high on my list of attributes because those half hearted souls who would quail at that sight and sound would most likely also wet themselves over the appearance of any firearm in resolute hands. I'd prefer to be prepped for the really hard cases.
Now of course with proper loads (buck and slugs) they deliver a mighty blow. Great if the fight only needs one or two hits. Which is probably the vast majority for civvies.
But, I cannot ignore the evidence that the heaviest hitters there are tend to favor a rifle caliber carbine for practically all their CQB uses.
IMO, the shotgun is not the all purpose combat tool that conventional wisdom used to argue. It is actually highly specialized for a narrow range of extremely close range applications.
Now of course with proper loads (buck and slugs) they deliver a mighty blow. Great if the fight only needs one or two hits. Which is probably the vast majority for civvies.
But, I cannot ignore the evidence that the heaviest hitters there are tend to favor a rifle caliber carbine for practically all their CQB uses.
IMO, the shotgun is not the all purpose combat tool that conventional wisdom used to argue. It is actually highly specialized for a narrow range of extremely close range applications.
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160 Posts
We agree on that.
A potential agressor who suddenly finds themselves staring down the barrel, where just before there had been an aid package, of a 14" 12 gauge brought rapidly to hand from a rear sweep stowage position tends to stop RTF now and reevaluate what they were thinking.
A 12 guage shotgun doesnt penetrate like a rifle. its not as fast as a rifle. It doesnt have the range of a rifle. But when your within 50 yards, #'s 1 or 2 steel or hevi shot will make you leak like a sieve, you pill. And as for slugs? they dont have the range of a rifle. thats about all they lack. If you measure a 12 ga in caliber, it is .780 inches inside the bore. Get hit by that, and your not getting back up again.
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