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the shotgun barrel is just a huge waste of time and effort. NOISY, short ranged, and pointless. All animals and birds stop moving SOMETIME, and a silenced .22 rifle costs no more than the O/U jokes, and it can be both concealable and an AUTO rifle. In fact,it can be FULL AUTO, as in the Norrell, cyclic-rate-reduced1022. Instead of it firing at 30 shots a second, as do all "normal" semi-22's, when converted to full auto, it cycles at 15 rds a second. That means that you can fire 2-3 bursts per second, making a 30 rd mag LAST a while, and laying a LOT of shock and destruction on a guy's chest, out to 100m, from the bipod, in fact. You can carry 11 subsonic .22lr's for each one of 12ga shells,you know. same wt and LESS bulk. Each .22 can, and should, drop a cow, dog, or man, making a few hundred rounds go a LONG ways indeed. Plenty far enough,actually, since you will be recovering guns and ammo from nearly every man that you shoot.

shtf will mostly be about avoiding-killing other PEOPLE., and packs of starving dog. Just "foraging" is not an option, and NOISY single shot .22's or shotguns plain suck for such use.

Having the OPTION of the 10x greater power of the 223, 4x the effective range, much more penetration of cars, wood, etc, makes having a canned CAR-15, with a .22lr conversion unit, a FAR better bet than just having the .22. The CAR can be full auto too, ya know. A LOT easier than can the Ruger 10-22, in fact.
 

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With the exception of the Savage, most rifle/shotgun combos are imported from Europe and are quite expensive. Unless it is something inherited, most Americans are quite unlikely to have such a combo in their gun safe. Your argument is a non-issue.

RIKA
 

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gunKid, you're the only person I've ever heard of who needs a bipod to engage a target at 100yds.

with a .22 no less!

:devil:
 

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SHTF can come in many forms.

Now, there are some who are itching to have an instantaneous, one day, sudden apocalypse. But what is more likely first is an ever increasing level of restrictions and/or a grinding down of the economy. Gotta hunt with something while the real weapons are stashed.

Keeping a low profile can be very important as is the legality and deniability factor, "Why yes, officer, I do have a gun in the house, this simple combo rifle is my gun."

With a .22/12ga you fire the two most common rounds in America. When legally hunting during normal times, you can zap a bird with the .22 and then claim you legally blew it away with the shotgun. In some places, it's only legal to hunt deer with shotguns.
 

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Raider said:
With the exception of the Savage, most rifle/shotgun combos are imported from Europe and are quite expensive. Unless it is something inherited, most Americans are quite unlikely to have such a combo in their gun safe. Your argument is a non-issue.

RIKA
The Baikal guns are fairly inexpensive. Choice of .22/20 gauge, or a number of centerfires, from .223 to .30'06, maybe .300 WM/12 gauge.

From what I've seen of the combo guns, though, they are not really good as shotgun or as rifles. More of a compromise. Interesting concept though.
 

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Combo guns, like the drilling (3 barrels) in Europe, are very popular as hunting weapons when legally it's only one gun that can be used in different types of hunting.

Interesting note, the Luffwaffe would put drillings with their aircrews as a survival weapon for remote areas of the Eastern Front. It had 2 - 12ga shotgun barrels and the rifle barrel was chambered for 9.3x74mmR.

Shotgun barrel inserts that shoot different rounds are also really popular in many places.
 

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Keep in mind, this continent is very vast. What serves in one area might not serve well in another. Try some common sense.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
NOISE is stupid EVERYWHERE, dummy,

and SO is a single shot, and so is a shotgun.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
TRY keeping a 6-7 rd burst on chest,

WITHOUT the bipod, slamming prone, SWIFTLY, dumbass.
 

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Re: TRY keeping a 6-7 rd burst on chest,

223 fan said:
WITHOUT the bipod, slamming prone, SWIFTLY, dumbass.
Is this the bipod you are planning to fast draw from your pouch?

or will you always have the bipod on the gun?

if you have time to attach the bipod and set it up, then you have time to aim from prone.

We practice shooting from prone a lot. It's a basic shooting position. We don't need a bipod and we shoot .308's. (we have them, but we don't NEED them.) We practice dropping prone and shooting.

when's the last time you (or your 'friend') actually practiced such?

What are you going to do if you are without the bipod (damage, loss, whatever)?


:devil:
 

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During WWII Allied aircrew in Southeast Asia found that pistols and rifles were of little value to a downed, possibly injured and hungry aircrewman. Combination shotgun/rifles (SR's) of the Savage pattern were incorporated in survival gear and proved overwhelmingly successful.

Previous experiments included 1911's with shoulder stocks and ten inch barrels, M1 Carbines, .22LR rifles, M1 rifles, SMG's, and .22LR pistols and .38 Spl revolvers. There was nothing mechanically wrong with the pistols or rifles, but the SR was much easier with which to take a food animal.

One of the SR's greatest strengths was the effectiveness of the shotgun barrel when the aircrewman's vision was blurry and in dim light.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
shtf will mean MILLIONS of people running

around, MOST with rifles of some sort. Make ANY noise, that carries more than a few meters, and you are going to get VISITORS. The aircrew didn't have to CARRY the shotgun, and the fact is, VERY few used the guns to any level of effectiveness at all. If they survived, they did so because of the help of natives, period.
 

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Re: shtf will mean MILLIONS of people running

223 fan said:
around, MOST with rifles of some sort. Make ANY noise, that carries more than a few meters, and you are going to get VISITORS. The aircrew didn't have to CARRY the shotgun, and the fact is, VERY few used the guns to any level of effectiveness at all. If they survived, they did so because of the help of natives, period.
Not true. In Third World countries, most people live in one or two densly populated cities, with a small number in scattered villages. Almost never do they live in jungles.

The downed aircrew that successfully E&E'd in WWII Southeast Asia often made good use of their combo guns until an Allied patrol could find them.
 
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