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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
once, why WORRY about the gun 'needing" cleaning after 600 rds, hmm? :) If you don't END 90% of your "fights" with 5 shots or less, you will survive only by LUCK.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
iF you need even TEN rds, you are either missing too much, or you have too many enemies to have any reasonable expectation of surviving without LOTS of luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
no dumbass, I did NOT say 10rds TOTAL for shtf. you can CLEAN the gun in between encounters, dumbass.
 

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blah blah blah. Same old recycled stuff. Go stuff a sock in your keyboard.

RIKA
 

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I've posted this more than once before, but cutting & pasting is cheap & easy, so here it is...

[paste]:

"Will" I need it? Probably not. But I "probably" won't need my truck's spare tire, or my fire extinguisher today either. Doesn't mean I'm going to throw them in the trash.

All I can say is that in the training I participate in, I've sometimes used more ammo than I could believe. Using M4 carbines and occasionally my own CAR-15, with Simunition uppers installed, playing "bad guy" in training exercises for a facility that trains all kinds of people. We also carry simunition-converted pistols; 1911's, Glocks, and Berettas.

FWIW, don't believe the ads that simunition is "like paintball". It's a plastic 9mm bullet @ 420fps. It just HURTS. I once caught a 7-round burst full-auto at about 8 feet. I couldn't have gotten up if I'd wanted to. (And I didn't want to; I just wanted to curl up into a ball & disappear.)


At this facility, I've "fought" operators from all kinds of agencies; from local swat units to military (I've never met an Air Force pilot-retrieval "operator" that was very good at this), to NNSA (National Nuclear Security Agency) teams. Most people have never heard of this agency, but when the director signs on in the morning, the nuclear power under his control makes him the fourth largest superpower in the world. These guys I've trained with have one mission: to re-take an American nuclear plant that's been taken over by "whoever". And they don't play like police. Standard procedure on engagement is a burst to the torso, a burst to the head, and THEN they handcuff your hands behind your back. (So you can't push a button if you're somehow still alive) They don't warn, and they don't let you surrender. They hunt and kill you. They have the best equipment the government can afford; and they ALL look like they eat wasp nests for breakfast and can bench-press a rabid bengal tiger. Nasty, scary people.

In rural Arkansas LE like I am, it's easy to get a "Billy Bad-ass" mindset; I'm 6'3", 245 pounds, shoot master qualifications on the pistol range, and my normal nightly workout is with 40-pound iron dumbells. Yet these guys honest-to-God make me feel like a sheep among the wolves. They're just tough bastards.

Point is, in these training exercises, I've more than once been on my fourth rifle magazine in one fight, depending on the scenario and how much shooting-&-maneuvering is going on. That's 66-88 rounds (22-round rifle mags, go figure) in ONE engagement. There's been times I've been 'killed' before needing to swap mags; and there's been twice that I've actually run out of ammo before all was over, and I carry five rifle mags and at least two pistol mags. Wasteful, yes. "A lot of missing", yes. But also a lot of "keeping them off me". (We 'bad guys' are often seriously outnumbered; seems hard to find volunteers to get shot at. Can't imagine why.) And when you're facing superior numbers with automatic weapons, and they know roughly where you are (and being govt agencies, they most always have the best night-vision gear, etc), "keeping them off you" means shooting and moving; period.

EVERY time I've tried to stay static against a larger or better-equipped group, I've died. EVERY time; and I know the buildings, cover, etc, better than these guys in training do, since I've been going there for years. So if staying static always equals death (which it has so far), the only chance for life is to NOT be static. That means moving, and when moving with people trying to shoot you, shooting back at them (even if inaccurately) can be very helpful in escaping. They don't want to get shot anymore than I do, and they are completely aware that I do know the facility better than they do. So their natural tendency is to duck when fire's incoming; even if it's largely inaccurate incoming fire, it's still more unnerving than NO incoming fire.

My point is this: I've rarely needed a "lot" of ammo, but it HAS happened. So when it's for real, I do carry more than I think I'll need. No way anyone can change my mind about that.

And fwiw, I've NEVER survived against the NNSA teams; no matter what new tactic I've tried. When it's them, my goal anymore is to "survive longer" than I have before against them, which is now 18 minutes.

Scary, horrid people.

[/paste]
 
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Johm great post.

melvin you post like you are talking ot someone? YOu bipolar disorder acting up again?
 

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I got to participate in one training exercise with a group whom I believe were NNSA, though I was never really told who they were.

In the first exchange, I lasted about 15 seconds once the engagement started.

In the second, I think I made it to about the 45 second mark.

I'm not an operator. I don't claim to be. I don't have any super ninja skills. I learned real quickly that there are some very serious, highly motivated people who apparently possess these skills.

These guys are probably the scariest people on the face of the earth when the shooting starts.

Melvin has no idea what kinds of people are out there and what skills and equipment these guys have.

Melvin's never been shot at, I have. It isn't any less unnerving when it is simunitions. (And yes, dammit, they hurt!)

:devil:
 

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John, those're some really, REALLY cool training opportunities you've locked into. I'm envious!

Aslan, John...how'd you like those contact-range sim rounds to the love handle area? That shit will wake you up in the mornin, boy!
 

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John, that was one of the fcking coolest things I've read here. How the heck do you get hooked up to play red cell against those guys? Sounds FUN.
 

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IN MEMORY OF ELMERS KEISTER said:
since won't SURVIVE needing 30 rds of 223 at once, why WORRY about the gun 'needing" cleaning after 600 rds, hmm? :) If you don't END 90% of your "fights" with 5 shots or less, you will survive only by LUCK.

IN MEMORY OF ELMER'S KEISTER said:
iF you need even TEN rds, you are either missing too much, or you have too many enemies to have any reasonable expectation of surviving without LOTS of luck.
IN MEMORY OF ELMER'S KEISTER said:
no dumbass, I did NOT say 10rds TOTAL for shtf. you can CLEAN the gun in between encounters, dumbass.

Damn TARD, you're slipping your clutch so early in the morning? Who are you talking to? Your Sock Puppet?

Where is all of this fighting going to take place NUTTY JOHN? Surely not just in your mind.

OK, now I get it, since these are fantasy gunfights, your fantasy 10" car doesn't need cleaning, if it is only fired in fantasy. Hmmm, OK, I agree!
 
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Awesome post John, and I thought my job was fun hunting on the airport and playing "downed pilot" in the woods for the aircraft to find.
 

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krept said:
John, that was one of the fcking coolest things I've read here. How the heck do you get hooked up to play red cell against those guys? Sounds FUN.

You have to be "smart" enough to voluntarily let well-armed, well-trained men chase you around & shoot at you. (Yes, I'm that smart)

You have to be close enough. (The facility is just barely out of my jurisdiction; not 20 minutes from my house.)

Frankly, I stumbled into it just by chance. The guy who ran the local LE supply house ended up working there, and I got an invite from him. I’d lived in the area for several years and didn’t even know the place was there. There are no signs or anything; just a plain rural mailbox at the end of a driveway that goes back ‘somewhere’ from the road, is all you can tell. Very low key.

Their website is www.DARC1.com (for “Direct Action Resource Center”)

I don’t work for them, and I’m not even officially associated with them at all. I’m just one of a couple dozen people that volunteer as role-players. They get free “bad guys” to train against, and we get some free training (and recreation, to be honest) at the same time. Win-win all around.
 

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I simply made a point of volunteering and getting involved with the police, fire department, and with a few of the instructors in the area...

:devil:
 

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andy said:
since won't SURVIVE needing 30 rds of 223 at once, why WORRY about the gun 'needing" cleaning after 600 rds, hmm? :) If you don't END 90% of your "fights" with 5 shots or less, you will survive only by LUCK.
[quote-andy]iF you need even TEN rds, you are either missing too much, or you have too many enemies to have any reasonable expectation of surviving without LOTS of luck.[/quote]

And yet he thinks soldiers have to carry tens of thousands of rounds in their packs to get hits in combat. . . :rolleyes:
 
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once, why WORRY about the gun 'needing" cleaning after 600 rds, hmm? :) If you don't END 90% of your "fights" with 5 shots or less, you will survive only by LUCK.
How many actual firefights are you basing this on? What actual combat experience are you drawing from? how many encounters have you ended with any shots?

you are clueless. You may need a single mag, you may need more than you have. You don’t know, won’t know, and can’t know until you are there.

here’s a very small clue for you: nobody has ever been in a gun fight and wished they had less ammo.
 

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So Melvin, since we won't "need" more than 30 rds, that's why you criticize us for wanting to carry more?
 

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Frankly, I stumbled into it just by chance. The guy who ran the local LE supply house ended up working there, and I got an invite from him. I’d lived in the area for several years and didn’t even know the place was there. There are no signs or anything; just a plain rural mailbox at the end of a driveway that goes back ‘somewhere’ from the road, is all you can tell. Very low key.

Their website is www.DARC1.com (for “Direct Action Resource Center”)
They've changed their website - it's now Direct Action Resource Center (DARC)
 
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